New member, old sword, can't remove Tsuka

[MichaelL]

Hi All, 
Got a Katana on speculation, sword looks vintage late edo period (at a guess), obviously not high end. I would like to remove the Tsuka to see the tang, however I see no visible mekugi?

 

Any thoughts?

 

M

 

 

 

[John C]

Michael:

My first impression was that it may be a reproduction. But what is going on with that latch? Could that be holding the tsuka on? Could just be the lighting.

 

John C.

[MichaelL]

Thanks John,

I certainly didn't pay much for it, so it could be a repo, but I don't believe that to be the case. The Saya is covered in real leather, it all looks worn and age weary, nothing looks bright or machined. Not elegant by any means, what you might call a working sword, but I don't thing its repo (doesn't really matter if it is).
 

I wondered about the latch too. But it moves freely and is not holding it together. The Saya has an internal cutaway to accept it, but the outer edge is well beaten down by it, so it has clearly been this way for some time. Anyway it does not appear to be holding the tsuka on.

[eternal_newbie]

I also believe it to be a reproduction, likely Chinese. Aside from the lack of visible mekugi (which suggests a rat-tail tang or a glued tang, neither of which are generally found in authentic Japanese swords), the grain of the blade looks far too unrefined, the kissaki shape is all wrong, and while it could be the lighting or photography, the shinogi (ridge-line in the middle of the sword) looks uneven and poorly defined.

 

https://www.jssus.org/nkp/fake_japanese_swords.html

[MichaelL]

Well not being a Nihonto expert (or novice), I took a punt. It might well be fake. I would wonder why fake it so poorly (why not fake an expensive cool looking blade etc). The rayskin is clearly real, the leather saya is also real, both worn with age, showing inconsistencies of age and shrinking. The Saya is also worn on the inside from considerable use. The Koiguchi is actually two separate layers of brass (why not just use one). Why not just use platsics and paint etc. I did put the images through an AI program (always a reliable source of nonsense) and it suggested...

 

A Japanese katana, late Edo to early Meiji period (c. 1800–1870), mounted in civilian koshirae, with a traditionally made blade in tired but honest condition.

Blade

• Shinogi-zukuri form with proper geometry

• Moderate sori consistent with late Edo proportions

• Kissaki correctly shaped, not reshaped or clipped

• Surface shows age-related scratches and light oxidation

• Hamon not clearly visible in current polish

• No obvious fatal flaws (no visible hagire or major structural damage)

Condition:
Unpolished, stable, and unrestored. Preserved rather than refurbished.

---

Nakago (Tang)

• Not removed for inspection

• Mounting suggests traditional construction

• Retained via concealed or non-standard peg arrangement

• No evidence of modern rat-tail or welded tang construction

Full attribution not possible without professional disassembly.

---

Mounts (Koshirae)

• Civilian style, not military

• Brass sukashi tsuba, Kyoto kinko-influenced aesthetic

• Blackened samegawa showing age-related shrinkage

• Ito intact but aged

• Mounting appears cohesive and period-appropriate

The mounts show use and age but are structurally intact.

---

Interpretation

This sword appears to be:

A modest but genuine Japanese blade, likely late Edo period, later mounted or refitted for civilian wear during the Edo–Meiji transition.

It is not:

• A modern reproduction

• A decorative wall sword

• A tourist souvenir piece

It represents a working or family blade rather than a high-ranking or battlefield weapon.

 

As for me, I have no idea, for the price I am happy to have it real or otherwise....
It does raise an interesting question as to how accurate is the assessment.

However for now I would like to know how to remove the hilt to inspect the tang (or lack of tang)....

 

Edited Wednesday at 04:03 AM by MichaelL

[dkirkpatrick]

I don’t see a peg to remove and I think you will end up doing more damage in long run.  100% reproduction, no reason to remove handle it would be crude and unsigned and fake Chinese signature.  Enjoy the cool look it is.

 

Doug

[eternal_newbie]

I disagree entirely with that AI assessment, but as you're satisfied with the blade either way I won't belabor the point. To your question about removing the tsuka, I wonder if the release button for the latch (which I assume this is) itself also functions as a mekugi somehow:

 

 

However I agree with Doug that it may not be worth the risk of damage. The one useful bit of info the AI generated is that the peg may be concealed, likely under the panels of rayskin, in which case it's likely to be a screw of some kind (which, again, you wouldn't see in a Japanese sword, which are designed to be easily dismantled for maintenance).

[MichaelL]

To satisfy peoples curiosity....

I did not pay much for it ($100). It certainly looks aged. I eventually took the step of unwrapping the hilt and did indeed find a peg. It was difficult to see and copper?

 

I could therefore also get photos of the tang.... or lack of tang...

 

Its real rayskin and leather wrap. Looks poorly made to me, however AI is still claiming its a real Japanese blade and not a Chinese fake (which in itself it interesting to me). No signatures (fake or otherwise) and the hole does not look drilled to me...

 

.

 

[eternal_newbie]

100% fake, most production Chinese blades have a better shaped tang than that. The metal around the hole being broken is another giant red flag for both safety and quality. I need to stress here that the AI is not analyzing the blade in the photos you are providing it with; it is analyzing the questions you are asking and providing you an answer it estimates you will like. In particular, it is blatantly lying about: 

 

• Kissaki correctly shaped, not reshaped or clipped (the kissaki is not at all correctly shaped)

• Brass sukashi tsuba, Kyoto kinko-influenced aesthetic (the tsuba is a standard military style, with bits cut out, and waaayyy thicker than anything you'd find in kinko)

• Blackened samegawa showing age-related shrinkage (the samegawa is white and is not shrunken but panelled)

 

The other inaccuracies at least could be forgiven in a real person who doesn't know enough to discern between good and bad quality, but those things above are straight up wrong, "don't believe your lying eyes"-style lies. Regarding the question of age - fakes such as these were commonplace when I first started collecting 20 years ago, and at that time plenty had already been around for 20 years. That's more than enough time to collect wear and tear, especially if used by a backyard warrior to cut bottles or branches over the years.

 

That said... for 100 Aussie dollars, you at least didn't get hugely ripped off, so I agree with you on that part; it's a reasonable enough price to pay for something to put on display or liven up a dull corner of a room.

[Brian]

AI is full of shit. That's the bottom line.
It's clearly a repro, and that was fairly clear without the nakago. We are very far from a world where AI can give you an accurate assessment of swords.
 

[MichaelL]

An interesting observation (eternal_newbie) about AI and giving you answers you wish to hear rather than what it can observe in the images. 

 

$100 is not much for a wall decoration. A Cosplay sword would have cost me more.

Edited Wednesday at 06:22 AM by MichaelL

[ROKUJURO]

4 hours ago, MichaelL said:

.......$100 is not much for a wall decoration.....

Who would deliberately spoil a nice wall with such a bad imitation?

Michael, if you compare to an original, you will find no detail looking remotely Japanese or authentic.

The handle wrap was made in a wrong technique (it was easy to remove, wasn't it?), the SAME strip is much too narrow. The HABAKI is just thin sheet-metal, the blade is possibly "iron damascus". The "TSUBA" is a cast mess and not remotely close to authentic ones. 

Weapons like this are probably produced in India, Bangladesh, or Pakistan in thousands. If the loss of $ 100 do not hurt you, I would like to suggest you buy some good books on Japanese swords. This would give you an idea about the real stuff, and help you buying the next (hopefully authentic) sword!  

[MichaelL]

Fair points all. 

 

It was bought at a general estate auction, along side a few obvious "cosplay" examples. The images were limited (see below), and the auctioneers had no idea, and were not inclined to take it out or photograph it any more. It was in a glass case (unlike the cosplay ones), and my initial thoughts were it resembled a WWII sword. The AI indicated this was not the case and suggested it was a civilian sword and after quite a bit of questions and prodding it was quite adamant on this... You cant always ask the questions you would like before hand so took a punt. Never thought it was of any real value, and was surprised at the AI comments, particularly after getting it and taking some better shots.... and still having it say it was real.

To answer some of the questions. The leather wrap is dry and old. I deal with horses so see a lot of crap leather. Easy enough to remove, but dried in place for some time so held its shape (painted on outer side). Had to be carefully not to tear or damage it further.  The same is real rayskin, two panels one each side that have simply shrunk with age/drying, these are certainly organic and not plastic. Yes the Tsube is a cast mess, it has two seppa (wafer thin) on either side. Did not remove the habaki to examine it, but it looks thin. The saya is wrapped in leather. There is enough tarnish, dirt, dust, scapes, and scratches to suggest it was not made yesterday. 

 

I get its a fake. I do wonder why a fake would use real leather, and real rayskin. Why not just paint the Saya black. Use fake rayskin, and cord for the wrap. Why run the ray skin under the kashira. Why use two layers of brass/plate on the koiguchi when one would have had the same effect. Why put in a spring latch at all... same for the seppa... it would all cost money to produce on what would have been ultimately still a cheap fake, that would have looked remarkably similar without them...

 

Anyway its done. Now to decide what to do with it. 

 

[eternal_newbie]

4 hours ago, MichaelL said:

I get its a fake. I do wonder why a fake would use real leather, and real rayskin. Why not just paint the Saya black. Use fake rayskin, and cord for the wrap. Why run the ray skin under the kashira. Why use two layers of brass/plate on the koiguchi when one would have had the same effect. Why put in a spring latch at all... same for the seppa... it would all cost money to produce on what would have been ultimately still a cheap fake, that would have looked remarkably similar without them...

 

To convince people it's worth more. Keep in mind, you're buying from an estate - the previous owner (or the original buyer before that) may have paid much more than the $100 you parted with. I remember fakes like this being sold for upwards of US $1000 in early-2000s money, when the awareness of forgeries was much lower and eBay was still an up-and-coming platform. For that much money, a few extra tens of dollars on some strips of leather and spare stingray skin is certainly worth the investment during the production stage.

 

A handful were, unfortunately, sold for much more, if the seller was able to produce some convincing Japanese "paperwork" or "certification" attesting to them being valuable historical artifacts with famous provenance (or even better, a supposed Japanese "expert" in the flesh) - but at that point you're leaving the realm of mere forgery and entering the world of con artists and fraudsters.

[Brian]

Leather is the easiest to fake, seen sooo many fake swords with what looks like 80 year old leather. Wet molded and aged a bit, and it looks ancient. I suspect they have people who do just that all day. Some fake combat covers look better than the real thing. I'm guessing labour and materials are so cheap there, that it means nothing to do a half decent job.
Either way, your next one will be better. But it's vital to look at some real ones, then the fakes become very very obvious.

[eternal_newbie]

2 minutes ago, Brian said:

Either way, your next one will be better. But it's vital to look at some real ones, then the fakes become very very obvious.

This is a good link if you haven't seen it already - it compares some of the fake ones with real swords and points out the differences.

 

https://www.jssus.org/nkp/fake_japanese_swords.html

[Scogg]

@MichaelL

Relocating to the fake Japanese sword section.

Sorry for the not-so-ideal assessment of your sword.
For what it's worth, some people here on the forum started with a fake blade, which inspired them to find and collect genuine examples.
Regards,
-Sam

[MichaelL]

All good, I was not expecting a whole lot for my $100. 

Took me a sec to realise the thread was moved, but rightly so. 

If nothing else I can take it apart and see how its put together (and what to look for etc).

Can certainly see how someone can easily pay a lot for it in the past.

Given as someone above said it would probably have been produced in their 1000s I am a little surprised not to see more examples of this sword online (as fake). Searching showed nothing, lots of real ones, but no fakes like this.

Anyway thanks all.

 

Edited Wednesday at 08:56 PM by MichaelL

[Hokke]

3 hours ago, MichaelL said:

I am a little surprised not to see more examples of this sword online (as fake).

 

 

I dont think this sword was made in the thousands. I think it was likely made maybe a few at a time, depending on who was selling them. I cant imagine this particular design being a big seller to the point where they needed volume. 

As for the price, someone said you didnt get ripped off.....I would agree to the extent that "ripped off" is more a feeling than a value. I would simply say that for the same $100, you could have procured a new mass produced blade made in china, but manufactured from actual carbon steel and mounted more appealingly. 

 

At the end of the day though, if you are pleased with how it looks on your wall......thats all that really matters. 

 

 

 

 

[MichaelL]

Well for what its worth the blade is steel (its magnetic) and 6mm thick. Have now taken a calliper to it, its substantial in weight. Its also not chromed or polished etc. 

 

But yes mounted more appealingly would have been nice.... oh well so it goes.

Edited Thursday at 01:18 AM by MichaelL

[ROKUJURO]

6 hours ago, MichaelL said:

......the blade is steel (its magnetic)....It's also not chromed or polished.....

All good things come together!