Slightly Cursed Kanemitsu

[Francis Wick]

1 hour ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

I would agree with the view that Jacques has on this. I would think it would most likely be late Muromachi Bizen sword, wheter actually someone named Kanemitsu that I cannot say. However I would think the sword is in original state. I tried to do quick sketch with paint how I would expect it to look originally in fittings if it would have been machi okuri at your line, of course it is just a rough sketch to give an idea that I have in my mind. To me the hole placement looks perfectly normal now in current state, if it would have been machiokuri then the original hole would have been unusually close to the machi.

.

 

I do have some amazing resources on Bizen swords, however I have not been able to find a reference signature of any late Muromachi Kanemitsu. I am extremely grateful for this thread as I tried to search them and ended up discovering absolutely massive Nanbokuchō naginata by Kanemitsu that I was not aware of before. Finding items like that in Japan makes me very happy. One "cursed" thing about smith lineages where there are extremely famous ones is that then many later generations can fall into obscurity.

Thank you Jussi your input is so valuable and appreciated! Your scratch makes me rethink the idea of the machi where it is and it makes complete sense that it is in the original position with your sketch 👍🏻 I am increasingly convinced it is late muromachi but be damned if I can find any other ones signed the same way from this period. I wonder if there is a way to get it looked at in North America by the NBTHK or NTHK ? I guess it would have to be polished first ?

Thank you again 👍🏻

[Francis Wick]

10 hours ago, Jacques said:

Ok, the machi is in better condition than I thought. however, I don't see why it would be machi-okuri.

I think you’re right it’s not machi okuri like I thought , Jusdi made a sketch which shows also it can’t be machi okuri. You are correct 

[Lewis B]

Here is a blade purported to be by a Bizen Osafune Kanemitsu from the late Muromachi era. Choroku period smith?

 

[Francis Wick]

34 minutes ago, Lewis B said:

Here is a blade purported to be by a Bizen Osafune Kanemitsu from the late Muromachi era. Choroku period smith?

 

Thank you for this example. Do you know if this one was authenticated? I just I’m struggling to find other examples. It could mean one of two things. My Sword is gimei which objectively I doubt as the signature is well done small kanji and finely chiselled and seems to be contemporary with the age of the nakago ( rusted away and smooth edges in places ) 

[vajo]

See the signature as an addition. Its an old warrior sword. Its very old.

[Jussi Ekholm]

Unfortunately to me the one with red background seems to be signed 備州長船清光 (Bishū Osafune Kiyomitsu). Kiyomitsu smiths were very prominent during late Muromachi.

 

One thing that might be taken into consideration is that it is common for us to call a gimei for a big name smith, while there could have been other smiths signing the same way. Like for example for Kanemitsu we will easily not pay too much focus on Kanemitsu signed katana like the one in this thread as it does not be a work of Nanbokuchō Kanemitsu. Well that does not maybe make a huge difference to most if it would be by unknown Muromachi Bizen Kanemitsu or a gimei. I just think the Japanese sword appreciation is extremely top heavy as they are the ones featured in almost every reference.

[Jacques]

Does the Kiyomitsu have a nengo ? 

[Lewis B]

Agreed, it appears to be Kiyomitsu. Lanes Armoury got it wrong. Ura side of the nakago isn't shown but my guess is that a nengo is absent

 

https://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/shop.php?code=24324

[eternal_newbie]

4 hours ago, Jussi Ekholm said:

One thing that might be taken into consideration is that it is common for us to call a gimei for a big name smith, while there could have been other smiths signing the same way.

Poor Tosa Yoshimitsu and Mihara Masamune... I wonder how many well-meaning folks have dismissed their work or erased their signatures from history thinking "yeah, there's no way this is a high-level Awataguchi/Soshu blade"

[Hoshi]

Hi, 

 

Yes, I agree. Gimei or obscure unskilled smith tend to be discarded the same. This is understandable for Art, but it is unjust to history. 

 

I would always err on the side of preserving signatures when there is even the slightest doubt that it can be genuine. Here, there is some small degree of doubt. 

 

As others have mentioned, it may be some obscure Muromachi-era Kanemitsu. In which case, it is not an artful blade, but a utilitarian object. 

 

The flaws, the hastily forged hada, all point towards a sword made with an intention of expedite production. The sugata, however, points to an earlier, or much later era - and combined with the dry O-hada, the uncertain strokes of the signatures, the stroke tagane style which deviates from Muromacho-era Bizen, and its gross misalignment to the shinogi line, form cues that lead me down the path of a deceptive intent. But these are just cues, and the overall picture is murky. 

 

If it is genuine, then it is a historical artifact as it may one be one of the few pieces left by by forgotten smith, and this at the end of the day is interesting from a historical perspective. 

 

And there it is, a study piece. Good for learning, which in the end is the goal. 

 

Best,

 

Hoshi

[Jacques]

16 hours ago, Lewis B said:

Agreed, it appears to be Kiyomitsu. Lanes Armoury got it wrong. Ura side of the nakago isn't shown but my guess is that a nengo is absent

 

https://www.thelanesarmoury.co.uk/shop.php?code=24324

No nengo = gimei....

[Jacques]

Does the person I made laugh have a valid point to make?

[CSM101]

From the Compton Collection: Kiyomitsu without nengo. So it must be gimei.

 

 

[Jacques]

So what? Just because it's in the Compton collection, does that mean it has to be soshin? All Bizen Osafune swords with a nagamei and an ubu nakago have a nengo, since OEI. 

[Jacques]

I would like to add that the shape of the nakago does not correspond to what Kiyomitsu was doing at that time (and that's not all...). 

https://www.toukenkomachi.com/index_ja_tachi&katanaA040425.html

Edited Friday at 10:32 PM by Jacques

[PNSSHOGUN]

Jacques raises a good point, the overwhelming majority of good Sue Bizen works with long Mei will feature a Nengo. For those who own Sue Koto vols. Iⅈ you will be hard pressed to find an example that doesn't follow this pattern. There will be exceptions out there, but they are certainly not the rule.  

[Jacques]

I should point out that I am referring to Chumon-uchi mono produced by skilled smiths (those showed in literature), not kazu-uchi mono or swords forged by obscure craftsmen.

Edited 15 hours ago by Jacques

[CSM101]

Bizen Osafune Yozo Saemon no jo Sukesada. No nengo. There are speculations that the date was removed .

[klee]

Very intersting piece @CSM101 ! Havent seen that one yet from all the sue bizen I looked through over the last few years. Reminds me of the magnicicent Kiyomitsu sword I currently own

 

https://eirakudo.shop/token/wakizashi/detail/319916

 

I took a shot and emailed Mr Sesko about it and he was very generous to respond to me

 

His #1 reason is what I would assume happened to this Sukesada

 

 

 

[CSM101]

Well, if you look hard enough you can find more examples without a date. Take the DTI catalogue from 2014. There are 3 different katana by Bizen Osafune Harumitsu. 2 have a date, one hasn't. 

 

Bizen Osafune Sukesada are sometimes without a date. Yes, most swords from Bizen have a date. But there are exceptions.

[Alex A]

Note to newbies, feel the need.

 

Beware of folks that don't step beyond books from the 1960s (boxed in)

 

Its part protecting the value of the books and also a genuine misunderstanding of how new information has come to light regarding various smiths. Call it ignorance

 

Sadly. the recluses of Nihonto.

 

Seen way to many instances of "this is how it is" then it gets blown out of the water

 

Too many BS rules broken. Folks calling gimei when in in fact legit (you know who you are, please shut up)

 

Its nowhere near as exact science as people assume it may be,

 

In fact, mostly the reason i have struggled with the hobby and come to this conclusion

 

Absolute Bollox, but love the swords, Its like two. three, seven hundred or more years ago but muppets here think they have it covered. Its embarrassing reading their "accurate" BS 

 

Just learn about what you buy and learn to enjoy what you buy, try avoid the misfortune of Shinsa here, its nonsense. People moan about images then troll like comment, oh dear.

 

F*** everyone else, especially online "experts" that know "f all "

 

GNGB

 

There are no experts, none.  A fact i have accepted.

 

 

[klee]

100% and well said @Alex A

[Alex A]

Hi Kevin,

 

What can one say.................

 

Long live NMB, always a learning curve, it makes people think and learn.