Why is saving for a sword a taboo ?

[Robert S]

1 hour ago, Gerry said:

Honestly, I wasn't even aware that there's a taboo against saving for a sword.

 

I just buy whatever excites me, whenever a piece like that comes along. Hobbies don't need to be taken so seriously, even if you're spending 6 figures on an item.

100% agree.  Or 3 figures 

[Hokke]

2 hours ago, Gerry said:

Honestly, I wasn't even aware that there's a taboo against saving for a sword.….

It’s not, it was a flawed premise proposed for pseudo educational purposes, by a single individual. 

[Rayhan]

12 minutes ago, Hokke said:

It’s not, it was a flawed premise proposed for pseudo educational purposes, by a single individual. 

And a catchy title too 

 

 

[Scogg]

Even if I don't agree 100%, I do believe Rayhan means well.

Let's keep it civil; and limit the pointed remarks.
We're all good now, but I'm keeping an eye on the thread.
-Sam

[Schneeds]

It seems to me that the NMB adage of "spend your first ____ $'s on books"  is a very similar mindset.  I never felt discouraged or encouraged to buy, or buy at any specific threshold; only to avoid rushing into stupidity.

 

Also, there are a lot of outside factors that can impact net gain/loss in your purchase.  I bought my first blade last year when the JPY bottomed out in a decade low against the USD, and avoided the now existing tariffs. That right there is a 30% reduction compared to if i bought it right now. 

[Rayhan]

3 hours ago, Schneeds said:

It seems to me that the NMB adage of "spend your first ____ $'s on books"  is a very similar mindset.  I never felt discouraged or encouraged to buy, or buy at any specific threshold; only to avoid rushing into stupidity.

 

Also, there are a lot of outside factors that can impact net gain/loss in your purchase.  I bought my first blade last year when the JPY bottomed out in a decade low against the USD, and avoided the now existing tariffs. That right there is a 30% reduction compared to if i bought it right now. 

Books are essential, don't be fooled into thinking otherwise. 

 

So what did you get as your first?

[Schneeds]

2 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

So what did you get as your first?

A modest Naoe Shizu. It has a formidable sugata, is healthy, and quite hefty despite its futasuji-hi though.  

 

I ended up stretching my intial budget to get what I believed was a quality level I would be happy with the foreseeable future, while still stopping well short of what I think I will spend someday. 

[Rawa]

3 hours ago, Schneeds said:

It seems to me that the NMB adage of "spend your first ____ $'s on books"  is a very similar mindset.  I never felt discouraged or encouraged to buy, or buy at any specific threshold; only to avoid rushing into stupidity.

 

Also, there are a lot of outside factors that can impact net gain/loss in your purchase.  I bought my first blade last year when the JPY bottomed out in a decade low against the USD, and avoided the now existing tariffs. That right there is a 30% reduction compared to if i bought it right now. 

Yeah it was right decision. But dollar is in his lowest now. I wonder if we don't have now dawn of new crisis comparable with 2008. 

[Rayhan]

Was it papered? Good condition? Naoe Shizu is a very nice first! Mind sharing any pictures, I love Shizu in general and used to have Naoe Shizu, wonderful swords.

[Rivkin]

To me this is not so much about whether limiting oneself to the uppermost bound is (always) a good thing. The issue is whether there is a single way to collect and whether money is the best metric to go by.

That depends. 

 

In a dojo sensei can try to dictate diet, habits or limit tv time of students. In Islamic or Jewish world in some communities you'll get a night bang on the door delivering a message from Sheikh he caught a glimpse of you walking pass the doorstep wrong foot first.

So, yes, there is a "proper way".

But Japanese sensei is well aware of myriads books/tv shows condemning the "deshi" relationship in its extreme form. He has cultural anti-bodies, which non-Japanese sensei usually does not.

One of big reasons I seldom attend DTI or many other assemblies, certainly wary of talking to random people, is the many existing groups with their senseis, strict rules regarding collecting, and how one has to study. I don't care about another dealer or "John who's been doing it for fifty years" running around me in circles. In three sentences you learn whether a person is ready to talk about swords, or he is out there to bring me to the "true path". 

I remember how 20 years ago I was repeatedly and passionately warned and prohibited against doing photography since it corrupts one's ability to work with oshigata and not a proper way. Or fed by "senseis" the genealogies of early smiths which can't be not taken seriously by anyone who progressed even a little bit past "jutetsu", default Heian attributions and other dealer stuff.

The "true path" has some merits, but its not my path. WE don't talk much about what costs what, we don't use money or number of Juyos (multiplied by kokuho in the power of five thirds) as The metric. I respect smiths with zero Juyos, those born in the wrong time or leaving behind so few blades they simply don't come up often. I respect 1000$ swords for what they are and 15,000$ Kiyomaro mumei for what it is. I seldom dictate what people are to do. I am not an almanach-registered Uradel. I do not have a Nobel prize. In my hierarchy me issuing dictats would not be proper. 
I simply enjoy blades, photography and solving puzzles.

[Rayhan]

4 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

To me this is not so much about whether limiting oneself to the uppermost bound is (always) a good thing. The issue is whether there is a single way to collect and whether money is the best metric to go by.

That depends. 

 

In a dojo sensei can try to dictate diet, habits or limit tv time of students. In Islamic or Jewish world in some communities you'll get a night bang on the door delivering a message from Sheikh he caught a glimpse of you walking pass the doorstep wrong foot first.

So, yes, there is a "proper way".

But Japanese sensei is well aware of myriads books/tv shows condemning the "deshi" relationship in its extreme form. He has cultural anti-bodies, which non-Japanese sensei usually does not.

One of big reasons I seldom attend DTI or many other assemblies, certainly wary of talking to random people, is the many existing groups with their senseis, strict rules regarding collecting, and how one has to study. I don't care about another dealer or "John who's been doing it for fifty years" running around me in circles. In three sentences you learn whether a person is ready to talk about swords, or he is out there to bring me to the "true path". 

I remember how 20 years ago I was repeatedly and passionately warned and prohibited against doing photography since it corrupts one's ability to work with oshigata and not a proper way. Or fed by "senseis" the genealogies of early smiths which can't be not taken seriously by anyone who progressed even a little bit past "jutetsu", default Heian attributions and other dealer stuff.

The "true path" has some merits, but its not my path. WE don't talk much about what costs what, we don't use money or number of Juyos (multiplied by kokuho in the power of five thirds) as The metric. I respect smiths with zero Juyos, those born in the wrong time or leaving behind so few blades they simply don't come up often. I respect 1000$ swords for what they are and 15,000$ Kiyomaro mumei for what it is. I seldom dictate what people are to do. I am not an almanach-registered Uradel. I do not have a Nobel prize. In my hierarchy me issuing dictats would not be proper. 
I simply enjoy blades, photography and solving puzzles.

This is a noble path and no doubt a Mumei Kiyomaro is a very nice puzzle, but you can never really solve the puzzle of any Mumei, because it is Mumei. This is me saying that and I have 50% Mumei swords in my collection at the moment. 

[Schneeds]

1 hour ago, Rayhan said:

Was it papered? Good condition? Naoe Shizu is a very nice first! Mind sharing any pictures, I love Shizu in general and used to have Naoe Shizu, wonderful swords.

Papered TH Naoe Shizu. Condition is overall good. Decent polish. It will never be Juyo, but I still might explore a fresh polish and sayagaki someday. 

 

 

[Rawa]

27 minutes ago, Schneeds said:

Papered TH Naoe Shizu. Condition is overall good. Decent polish. It will never be Juyo, but I still might explore a fresh polish and sayagaki someday. 

 

 

 

Nanbokucho, check @Jussi Ekholm list, search with th number.

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/53018-Japanese-old-sword-database/page/2/

[Rayhan]

1 hour ago, Schneeds said:

Papered TH Naoe Shizu. Condition is overall good. Decent polish. It will never be Juyo, but I still might explore a fresh polish and sayagaki someday. 

 

 

Ok so I am going to ask you to please explain how you came to choose this as your first? It spoke to me is not an answer I would expect at Naoe Shizu because good Naoe Shizu speaks to most people in some way. But having your story would be a great addition to this sort of outcome. 

I do not know how healthy the measurments are but I like the sword, it has wonderful Sugata and even in this polish it has a lot to say! So congratulations on a first buy, Sugoi!. 

[Schneeds]

For me, the journey started rather typical (for this day and age). I started out just reading and browsing the forum for a long time, trying to learn as much as I could. Then I came to the realization there's really no way to skip the book learning. 

 

So I bought Connoisseurs and read that several times. Next I picked up Markus' Japanese Sword Smith Index. I spent a lot of time looking at dealer offerings online and cross checking it with Connoisseurs and the Index. 

 

From the onset I had the Nanboku-cho period in mind because I love the sugata, and that particular and relatively short moment in history. I began looking at and reaeaching the top Soshu masters basically because of the reputation of being the pinnacle. 

 

I liked Kaneuji and Norishige the most, however getting close to the master's work at my set price range was not gojng to be very realistic. Kaneuji's history was particularly investing to me, so I started looking into Naoe Shizu as a sort of way to get Nanboku-cho Soshu at Mino prices. (Rember I'm a newbie).

 

I liked the examples of Naoe Shizu I could find, and what really sold it was my picking up the Soshu Den Masterpieces book. The description there of Naoe Shizu being a quality blade that was sought after by actual warriors really did speak to me. Ive been through some s**t in my 15 years in law enforcement, and when I look at that work, it feels deadly but beautiful. 

 

I don't know if that's a good reason or not

[Tsuku]

7 hours ago, Rayhan said:

but you can never really solve the puzzle of any Mumei, because it is Mumei. This is me saying that and I have 50% Mumei swords in my collection at the moment. 

At the risk of sounding Zen about it: if a puzzle does not have a certain answer, that does not mean it has nothing to teach you.

 

It is the step between “not all puzzles have answers” and “no puzzles have true answers.”

[Rayhan]

20 minutes ago, Tsuku said:

At the risk of sounding Zen about it: if a puzzle does not have a certain answer, that does not mean it has nothing to teach you.

 

It is the step between “not all puzzles have answers” and “no puzzles have true answers.”

Oh on the contrary!!! Let me reiterate my current collection is 50% Mumei, but I keep to the rule of Heian, Kamakura and Nanbokucho only Mumei. I do like it when there is a direct attribution because it forces us to look at why that name was given and hunt for clues in the steel, but it makes it hard unless you've seen many zaimei from the same smith and can piece it all together. You might even say, wait that's not right, it just keeps the puzzle going. I appreciate more when a sword is placed at its artisans group, eg, ichimonji or Aoe or Hosho etc. This allows for very quick identification of key traits, which leads to years of enjoyment trying to figure out who it was within ichimonji for example that made the sword. But, you can never be sure, which is also charming and frustrating. Mumei are cheaper in Muromachi on to shinshinto for that reason and the older mumei are so few anyway that sometimes we just have no choice. Hosho for example, you get to see or own Hosho you don't um and ah or hmmm, you buy it straight away. They are that rare and katana or tachi are all mumei on the market. No choice. Unless Tanobe sensei gives his attributions then I am very eager to own that.

 

But Muromachi onwards you have so many zaimei examples available it makes no sense to try and learn from mumei. You will still see the basics but getting to the who is not possible because the Muromachi was when mass produced blades were around and Bizen smiths only put their names on the best blades or signed with a very arbitrary general mei and sent the blade out the door. Edo is a time of artistic expression and that means smiths were doing the variety thing so you might have one smith doing a multitude of traditions. Not a good idea to learn from impressionism, that's more for the beauty. Koto was for the warrior. Edo was for peace time.

 

 

 

[Scogg]

I think it's important to remember that personal collections aren’t the only path to learning or appreciating swords. I often visit shows and museums to study blades I could never dream of owning; and honestly, that's where some of the most valuable learning happens, especially through conversations with more advanced collectors.
 

There are incredible swords, books, and displays out there that can teach and inspire us, no matter what’s in our own collections.
 

Having handled only a few truly high-end blades, it's clear to me that no entry-level price point; whether it's X, Y, or Z; can really compare in terms of quality or significance.

After seeing a Go Yoshihiro in person this year and some Juyo+ Aoe blades; I realize there’s probably no amount I could have spent on my own collection (with my income) that would evoke that same feeling of awe, or approach that level of quality.
 

So where does that leave me? It brings me back to collecting what resonates with me, what I enjoy, what I can afford, and what feels meaningful. And that’s absolutely valid for any collector.
 

I really like Shneed’s approach,

-Sam

[Hokke]

9 hours ago, Rayhan said:

Books are essential, don't be fooled into thinking otherwise. 

Essential? For what exactly? Try to answer without making assumptions perhaps

[Rayhan]

1 minute ago, Hokke said:

Essential? For what exactly? Try to answer without making assumptions perhaps

Maybe i will just avoid your question, 1  because the answer is obvious (so makes you look very intelligent, yes sarcasm) and 2 you're in a combative mood as usual and im just chillin'

[Hokke]

Just now, Rayhan said:

Maybe i will just avoid your question, 1  because the answer is obvious (so makes you look very intelligent, yes sarcasm) and 2 you're in a combative mood as usual and im just chillin'

So, sarcasm and assumptions, go it. Yeah, probably a good idea to remain silent.

[Bugyotsuji]

The original question was "Why is saving for a sword taboo?"

Wouldn't that question be illegal in a court of law? A loaded question like asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife, yes, or no?"

 

Personally I got stuck at that point.

 

Is it taboo, and who said so? Or is the word 'taboo' here tongue-in-cheek? Am I on the spectrum?

[Hokke]

1 minute ago, Bugyotsuji said:

The original question was "Why is saving for a sword taboo?"

Wouldn't that question be illegal in a court of law? A loaded question like asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife, yes, or no?"

 

Personally I got stuck at that point.

 

Is it taboo, and who said so? Or is the word 'taboo' here tongue-in-cheek? Am I on the spectrum?

Clickbait, as confirmed by the author

[Bugyotsuji]

Wow, that's a relief, thank you Calabrese!!! 

[Rayhan]

@Hokke it must be really hot in Florida man, grab a cocktail or something 

[Rayhan]

20 minutes ago, Bugyotsuji said:

The original question was "Why is saving for a sword taboo?"

Wouldn't that question be illegal in a court of law? A loaded question like asking, "Have you stopped beating your wife, yes, or no?"

 

Personally I got stuck at that point.

 

Is it taboo, and who said so? Or is the word 'taboo' here tongue-in-cheek? Am I on the spectrum?

Only in a communist court Piers...read the whole thread

[Bugyotsuji]

I have struggled to read most of it, but this locomotive has a habit of going off the rails...

[Rayhan]

Just now, Bugyotsuji said:

I have struggled to read most of it, but this locomotive has a habit of going off the rails...

Its more of a ship really 

[Scogg]

Babysitter on duty 

But really guys, lets keep the temperature low enough so not to require a re-temper. 

Really don't want to lock this thread. There has been some good input between the noise.
-Sam

[Gakusee]

16 minutes ago, Rayhan said:

Its more of a ship really 

 

@Rayhan

@Bugyotsuji

Given that you two, esteemed gentlemen, are both in London currently, whilst residing elsewhere permanently, I think you should grab a coffee or cocktail. Knowing both of you, I am positive you will get along nicely and can discuss your disparate collecting interests, spanning much more than nihonto….