Legit copper or very good fake?

[John C]

Not sure about this one. Looks good at a glance, however the details seem off (stamps are rough; chromed blade?, posibly repainted?). Already at 1,700.

https://shopgoodwill.com/item/236264839

 

John C.

[Rawa]

No arsenal mark? Prerelease show item?

[Scogg]

I believe it's legitimate. Nice to see the remnants of the leather sarute is still there. Some of the Pattern1 blades didn't get the arsenal stamp next to the serial number; we see several without the blade arsenal stamp. Looks like the suya stamp on the fuchi may have been double struck, which is a good detail for my notes.

 

I have this specific sword #161 recorded from a couple different sources, and I believe it's number is listed in Dawsons Cyclopedia also.

Thanks for sharing,
-Sam 

[Rawa]

11 minutes ago, Scogg said:

I believe it's legitimate. Nice to see the remnants of the leather sarute is still there. Some of the Pattern1 blades didn't get the arsenal stamp next to the serial number; we see several without the blade arsenal stamp. Looks like the suya stamp on the fuchi may have been double struck, which is a good detail for my notes.

 

I have this specific sword #161 recorded from a couple different sources, and I believe it's number is listed in Dawsons Cyclopedia also.

Thanks for sharing,
-Sam 

Thx for your opinion saya looked genuine. So its great piece. @John C grab this.

[Scogg]

I'd love to know if the Saya has a matching number or not. 

For what it's worth, with SF around the corner and having recently purchased another blade; I will NOT be bidding on this copper 95.

I hope you, or someone on the board acquires it for a good price. If someone here gets it, please send me a message about the saya serial number.

Happy hunting! 
-Sam

[John C]

Thanks for the replies. 1,700 is already beyond my reach but wanted to share in case others are interested. Was wondering why someone would donate it to Goodwill if it has been recorded (i.e., discovered in the wild already).

 

John C.

[Scogg]

I wonder too. I am surprised to see any copper appear on goodwill, especially one that has some provenance. Considering it’s already over typical aluminum prices, I imagine at least two of the bidders have an idea what it is.  
 

Allow me to correct something: My statement before was slightly misleading. I have this sword recorded from a source “Donald Barnes” and also in Dawsons cyclopedia. But one of Dawsons cyclopedia source was Barnes himself, so while it appears twice - both appearances are from the same source. 
 

I wonder if this sword was donated by someone who inherited it, or figured the metal handle meant it wasn’t real. Who knows, but could be a good pickup for someone 

Photo from Dawsons cyclopedia: 

[Bruce Pennington]

 

Photo added for the discussion.  Suya stamped definitely double struck.

 

Saya has the horse shoe shaped end for those who watch those things:

[Scogg]

Nearly at $3k now. Someone knows what they want 

[Rawa]

Same crazy shiet like with 6k$ unpapered mounted Shigetsugu 2 months ago. Peps go monkey all the time and those are peps from here I would tell. But its at the end lucky and important military piece will get good home.

[John C]

Winning bid was 3,001 dollars.

 

John C.

[Scogg]

Thanks John, I came here to check. 
 

Honestly, these days, not a bad price. I wonder what price it could have realized if it were marketed better, on a different platform other than goodwill. 
 

I hope it shows up being posted here someday, so I can record the saya number .

-Sam

[Rawa]

Omfg I'm lost of words. If I only knew. I wasn't bidding becouse I thought It's going to good hands. 

https://ebay.us/m/SW6xUn

[Scogg]

WOW 

 

I doubt they've even received the item yet, and it looks like they're even reusing the goodwill pictures !

Bummer,
-Sam

 

[PNSSHOGUN]

Nine thousand USD, is this guy serious?! That seller is shaping up nicely as the next samurai monkey....

[Rawa]

True

[John C]

The least they could have done was take their own pictures.

John C.

[Rawa]

I think we have him on forum here.

[Lareon]

The price it sold for originally is close to the max of what i would pay. it's a decent amount for a low serial number, But 9,000 usd?

[Rawa]

https://ebay.us/m/Czkfqt

It has sold for 9k. Unbelievable.

[Lareon]

Crazy. Then again if someone is missing one from their collection, there's not too many out there and it's a low number, maybe the lowest? Bruce or someone who is tracking the serials could probably say.

 

[Rawa]

1 hour ago, Lareon said:

Crazy. Then again if someone is missing one from their collection, there's not too many out there and it's a low number, maybe the lowest? Bruce or someone who is tracking the serials could probably say.

 

@Scoggposted pic with numbers. Still stupid amount even if such a "artistic" piece is only one you miss.

[Scogg]

The lowest serial number that I have recorded is #4, and the source is Donald Barnes, which is also listed in Dawsons. 

The lowest number I've ever seen online (with my own eyes), is #71 with matching saya. Shared here on the NMB earlier this year.

 

161 is very low, and would be a valuable addition to any Japanese military sword collection. But for 9k?! I’d rather have a papered koto blade in nice polish 

If anyone has questions regarding 95s, I'm always happy to share what i've gathered.  
All the best, 
-Sam

[Lareon]

If the copper with serial no.1 came up, i'm curious what that would sell for

 

[Scogg]

The rarity and desirability of a "serial number 1" would likely command a premium; and could be the kind of item that might attract a buyer for whom money is no object. Although, that sword likely no longer exists. 

 

In addition to the initial production run of Copper handled Type 95s from 1937, there are also reports of prototypes dating back to the 1920s. Nick Komiya discusses these early examples in the Warelics thread (linked below), with quote and image attached here:

https://www.warrelics.eu/forum/Japanese-militaria/short-development-history-type-95-gunto-676112/?s=7148dfd90e6b382bc90f0ac3f85e0bd9

"Prototypes 1 to 4 (1923-1928)
The first prototypes were ready in March of 1923, which followed the precedent of the Type 32 by having a cavalry version and another version for un-mounted troops. These were presented for testing at the Toyama School and the Cavalry School. However, surprisingly, both schools responded, saying that a sword for a two-handed grip was more desirable, which gave rise to a common version for both types of services.

This was the concept of the second prototype, submitted to both schools in March 1925. The new design was favorably received, but some added weight as well as a shift of the center of gravity to the front was suggested. Such was then the third prototype that was tested in September 1926. The blade was thicker by 0.5mm among other changes. The feedback pointed to too much curvature in the blade and the schools preferred a grip closer in design to a Samurai sword. Also, the Cavalry School did some back-treading, saying a handguard would not be unwelcome.

The 4th round of prototype tests were carried out in May 1928 and the 5th round followed in September 1929."


So, begs the question, where are these prototypes hiding? Do any still exist? Would they be worth more for rarity, or less because they're fairly unknown? I think there's one in Dawsons, but I don't have my books on me right now.
I've seen claims that they're still around, but nothing concrete.
-Sam