Ainu Sword Questions

[tac1984]

Hi everyone,

 

I recently won this sword at an auction.  Upon receiving it I found it to be unlike most Japanese swords I've seen.  After some research I was told it was Ainu.  Unfortunately I can't find much more information about it and the auction description just said "Japanese Wakazashi".  If anyone may know how old it is or anything else about it I'd be very grateful to know.

[Rawa]

It have nothing to do with nihonto.

[Rawa]

Basically sb took random piece of metal, shaped it and sharpened.

[tac1984]

I'll move it to the appropriate section.

[Matsunoki]

If you take the peg out does the hilt come off? If so image of tang?

Its possible it could be a very poor condition Tanto blade in “home made” mounts.

Cant be sure from these pics.

[eternal_newbie]

 

[tac1984]

The Mekugi is broken.  It seems to be made of the same bone that's in the handle and the scabbard but it's split in the middle.  The top of the peg comes out but the bottom one does not and I don't want to try to remove forcefully.

[Matsunoki]

1 minute ago, tac1984 said:

and I don't want to try to remove forcefully.

Then we will never know.

[Scogg]

7 minutes ago, tac1984 said:

I'll move it to the appropriate section.

 

Until we see and know more, it’s totally fine in this section. Not everyone knows if what they have is a Nihonto or not before they post. It’s the nature of the forum

 

All good here Thomas ,

Best of luck in your search for answers.

-Sam 

 

[tac1984]

How would you suggest I remove the other remove the bone peg without breaking it?  I'm sure I'm not the first one who's dealt with that issue. lol

 

[eternal_newbie]

More examples of Ainu weapons, many with detailed descriptions and historical information:

https://www.mandarinmansion.com/culture/ainu

https://www.mandarinmansion.com/article/knives-and-swords-ainu

[tac1984]

This is the most similar I could find.

 

https://www.proantic.com/en/994063-rare-Japanese-ainu-sword.html

[Scogg]

8 minutes ago, tac1984 said:

How would you suggest I remove the other remove the bone peg without breaking it?  I'm sure I'm not the first one who's dealt with that issue. lol

 

You’re totally right, and it’s a common problem. Sometimes they can be really stuck, and especially if any adhesive was used. Hard to know without inspecting it in person. 
 

Typically the peg will be tapered, or slightly conical shaped. It should come out one way more easily, and not the other. Inspect both sides, and push on the smaller end. If all else fails, you may need to gently tap with a block of wood. 
 

Tough to say without having it in hand. I’ve struggled many times to release a tsuka from the nakago, and it’s not always an easy or simple task. Overall, the value of the bone peg pales in comparison to the information it hides; but no need to break anything if you’re careful. 
 

Best of luck, proceed gently and with caution, and remember “time is on your side” so don’t rush it. 
-Sam 

[tac1984]

Thank you.  I will try and gently remove it.

[Brian]

Think this could easily be Ainu. In fact, based on your link https://www.proantic.com/en/994063-rare-japanese-ainu-sword.html I think it is highly likely.

[tac1984]

Quote

If it is Ainu, would the tang be signed?  Is it worth it to try and remove the broken Mekugi?

 

 

[tac1984]

f it is Ainu, would the tang be signed?  Is it worth it to try and remove the broken Mekugi?

[Ray Singer]

Likewise, as mentioned in your previous post I feel this is Ainu. 

[tac1984]

I just had an expert exam it in person. Unfortunately the mekugi is glued. How've, he said it's about 400 to 500 years old. Some parts are missing from the scabbard (bone inlay) but he recommended it by a polishing kit. That will arrive Gilmore tomorrow. 

[Peter Bleed]

This sword has generated a lot of reactions, opinions, and assertions. Let me add to the mix. IMHO, this blade is NOT AINU.

I will also assert that it IS(!) Japanese but NOT really a "Japanese sword". These  things - have the overall, gross design of Japanese blades, but they regularly involved various wood, antler, and complexly woven fiber fittings. The do NOT have Ainu style carved embellishments. They are also NEVER shown in Japanese studies of Ainu ethnographic materials. I have never found a published treatment of these blades, - and I have Looked !  I feeling is that they are blades made by and for  folks like the MATAGI  and other folks who occupied forests and other wild country of the Edo and mebbe Meiji  era. Japan. They supplied wild meat and other resources but operated largely outside polite and official society. Look it up  - - - MATAGI. 

Peter

[tac1984]

27 minutes ago, Peter Bleed said:

This sword has generated a lot of reactions, opinions, and assertions. Let me add to the mix. IMHO, this blade is NOT AINU.

I will also assert that it IS(!) Japanese but NOT really a "Japanese sword". These  things - have the overall, gross design of Japanese blades, but they regularly involved various wood, antler, and complexly woven fiber fittings. The do NOT have Ainu style carved embellishments. They are also NEVER shown in Japanese studies of Ainu ethnographic materials. I have never found a published treatment of these blades, - and I have Looked !  I feeling is that they are blades made by and for  folks like the MATAGI  and other folks who occupied forests and other wild country of the Edo and mebbe Meiji  era. Japan. They supplied wild meat and other resources but operated largely outside polite and official society. Look it up  - - - MATAGI. 

Peter

 

I agree it's definitely not in the style of what we think of when people say Japanese Sword.  

I did look up Matagi (thank you for the suggestion) but they seem to make more use of bigger blade hunting knives.  If I find a way to safely remove the mekugi I will post a picture of the tang. I'm not going to try to push it out with the brass tool since the guy who examined it today said he couldn't budge it and was afraid it would cause damage to the blade.

[Matsunoki]

My money is still on re-cycled Japanese blade…..which indeed the Ainu did which  makes perfect sense -so  the blade could well be that old. However no way the mounts are 4-500 years old (imo)

 

[tac1984]

19 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

My money is still on re-cycled Japanese blade…..which indeed the Ainu did which  makes perfect sense -so  the blade could well be that old. However no way the mounts are 4-500 years old (imo)

 

Yes, he said the blade was 400 to 500 years old.

[Matsunoki]

 

18 minutes ago, tac1984 said:

Yes, he said the blade was 400 to 500 years old.

Did he say exactly how he deduced that? 

[tac1984]

4 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

 

Did he say exactly how he deduced that? 

No. He told me after he examined it. He runs this business. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://authenticjapaneseswords.com/&ved=2ahUKEwjSg8HSy_SNAxUYF1kFHf5TEzcQFnoECBsQAQ&sqi=2&usg=AOvVaw3r6Vi-NtZy0hytZlnDaygC

[tac1984]

I had to dig out the glued and rotten mekugi but got it! 

 

 

[Ray Singer]

The mei appears to be Nobutada. 

[Matsunoki]

Looks like a heavily abused old Nihonto blade to me. 
 

edit…….

with a spurious Mei added in an implausible place on a nakago that has been heavily “modified”

[tac1984]

3 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Looks like a heavily abused old Nihonto blade to me. 
 

edit…….

with a spurious Mei added in an implausible place on a nakago that has been heavily “modified”

What makes you think it's spurious?

[Rawa]

Think who would sign that high. Think how this blade looked before it got another mekugi ana.