Fujiwara Yukinaga: Why no info?

[jdawg221]

Recently picked up a fujiwara Yukinaga daito, and for a ryowazamono Smith with relatively high ratings there's oddly next to no info on him. Besides the obvious "it's because he's a bungo Smith," are there any other reasons for this? Or perhaps I'm not looking in the right places. 

[oli]

You can find some information about Fujiwara Takada school in Shinto-shi from Markus Sesko. 

[jdawg221]

Already have shinto-shi. For some reason Markus only states that Yukinaga existed and his swords apparently cut well, which honestly is not much to go off of. 

[oli]

4 minutes ago, jdawg221 said:

Already have shinto-shi. For some reason Markus only states that Yukinaga existed and his swords apparently cut well, which honestly is not much to go off of. 

For which information are you looking for?

[Rivkin]

There is a book on bungo, but generally what's to say. He forged in a style similar to Hizen and Rai. Unlike Hizen everything is a bit like drawing with very sharp, harsh contours. He could reproduce utsuri, sometimes he would add shingane on purpose. He is a good and interesting smith.

[lonely panet]

well after that Riv,  show us something to slobber over

[jdawg221]

1 hour ago, Rivkin said:

There is a book on bungo, but generally what's to say. He forged in a style similar to Hizen and Rai. Unlike Hizen everything is a bit like drawing with very sharp, harsh contours. He could reproduce utsuri, sometimes he would add shingane on purpose. He is a good and interesting smith.

Thanks! Honestly this was the info I was looking for. Couldn't find anything online describing his style

[oli]

some old Aoiart sells:

https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-hosyu-takada-jyu-fujiwara-yukinaga/

https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-hoshu-takada-ju-fujiwara-yukinaga/

[Grevedk]

Hi Jonathan,

 

I have a very nice and well crafted wakizashi that is made by the 3rd generation Yukinaga (Bungo Takada school). A very fine smith. I have included the family tree as a pdf file below should it have your interest as well as some pictures of his work. Would love to see pictures of your acquisition.

 

/Soeren

 

 

 

kaimotogenealogy.pdf

[Jacques]

Chu jo saku. Bungo Takada is considered a minor school due to the absence of top-level artists.

[Rayhan]

19 minutes ago, Jacques said:

Chu jo saku. Bungo Takada is considered a minor school due to the absence of top-level artists.

This observation is slightly harsh, I think they (Bungo smiths) are more utilitarian than artistic so they should be categorised in that spectrum. 

[Jacques]

Quote

I think they (Bungo smiths) are more utilitarian than artistic so they should be categorised in that spectrum.

A sword work of art is as effective as it is beautiful, whereas the reverse is not true. As for the Wazamono ranking, it should be taken with a great deal of hindsight.

[Rivkin]

Note - the server overcompresses so some jigane clarity is lost. It is a decent Rai imitation, there is even some shingane in other part of the blade. Shirake utsuri is good.

[Rivkin]

Another one. The polisher thought its imitation of Hizen Tadayoshi. I disagree, believing its actually a good rendition of Bungo Yukihira's jigane with tobiyaki and dark chikei.

Note: even today few people studied Yukihira's blade in excellent condition, but apparently Bungo Yukinaga did. It is surprising thing about Bungo smiths - they spend a lot of time learning from older blades and a few excelled in reproducing them.

 

[jdawg221]

43 minutes ago, Jacques said:

A sword work of art is as effective as it is beautiful, whereas the reverse is not true. As for the Wazamono ranking, it should be taken with a great deal of hindsight.

Not to offend, but with this statement in mind, wouldn't masahide's accounts of breakage in shinto art swords disprove this notion? Also to draw a comparison to cars; there are cars that are beautiful and fast, and there are cars that are just fast. One doesn't necessarily mean the other

[Franco]

12 hours ago, jdawg221 said:

Recently picked up a fujiwara Yukinaga daito, and for a ryowazamono Smith with relatively high ratings

 

If he's a well rated smith there should be info written up in Fujishiro. 

[Toryu2020]

Keep in mind not every artists workmanship is fully recorded, sometimes you have to research his teachers and others in the same school to build a proper profile...

 

-t

[sabiji]

12 hours ago, Rivkin said:

Noch einer. Der Polierer dachte, es sei eine Imitation von Hizen Tadayoshi. Ich bin anderer Meinung und glaube, es ist tatsächlich eine gelungene Interpretation von Bungo Yukihiras Jigane mit Tobiyaki und dunklem Chikei.

Hinweis: Auch heute studieren noch nur wenige Menschen Yukihiras Klinge in ausgezeichnetem Zustand, Bungo Yukinaga hingegen offenbar. Überraschenderweise verbringen Bungo-Schmiede viel Zeit damit, von älteren Klingen zu lernen, und einige wenige haben es geschafft, diese hervorragend zu reproduzieren.

 

I can only agree with Kirill. I've long since changed my view of the bungo smithy. In the fall of 2022, in addition to the classic Bungo Yukihira, a Bungo Swordsmith from the Sue Koto period was on display, whose name I have unfortunately forgotten. The sword was an unbelievably beautiful Aoe copy with Saka-Ashi and a powerful Utsuri.

[Jacques]

Quote

 Bungo Yukihira,

To compare a Yukihira with the Takada school is utter nonsense.

Shodai Tadayoshi has never done Bungo Yukihira utsushi; he has done : Yamato den, Rai, Naoe shizu, Chôji, Muramasa, Soshu, Aoe and Samonji.

In each school, there is a difference in level between smiths, and this level often decreases over time

[Jacques]

Quote

Not to offend, but with this statement in mind, wouldn't masahide's accounts of breakage in shinto art swords disprove this notion?

You don't understand Masahide's approach, just as you don't understand that we call a work of art. Comparing it to cars is irrelevant

[Robert S]

2 hours ago, Jacques said:

You don't understand Masahide's approach, just as you don't understand that we call a work of art. Comparing it to cars is irrelevant

Can't agree with you on the "comparing it to cars" front.  I think the point that Jonathan was making is that hardness and resilience in a sword can be achieved in an ugly sword, and likewise a sword can have fatal internal flaws which render it highly vulnerable to breakage, but have a magnificently executed form, hamon, etc..  The parallel to cars is appropriate.  You could take a Jaguar D-type and put a pinto engine in it, or you could take a pinto and put a d-type engine and good suspension in it (with some pretty creative shoe-horning!)  The first would be beautiful but boring to drive, the second would be hideous, but fast.

 

There may be an impression that koto blades, for instance, never combined beautiful form and lousy strength... but that is likely just because all the koto blades that had poor strength broke hundreds of years ago, so we don't see them.  As a scientist, you will know that some experiments fail - it wouldn't be science if that weren't true.  Likewise, craftsmen will always experiment with technique, and some of those experiments, despite being beautifully formed and polished, will inevitably fail when severely tested.

[Jacques]

No sword is unbreakable; the Japanese swords broke on the Mongols' boiled leather breastplates, leading Masamune to devise new forging techniques. Most of the swords that have come down to us were never used in combat - many were hoarded as soon as they were made, and were only worn for informal ceremonies (which is to be expected, given their price). The vast majority of kazu-uchimono were made during the Sengoku-jidai, and are therefore koto. An art sword is functional because the quality of the workmanship makes it a work of art. A sword of art is not a sword with a flamboyant hamon, but a sword perfectly made at every stage of its manufacture. Quality of steel, uniqueness of the hada, homogeneity of the hamon, layout of the nie, etc.

 

Robots and machines make cars, not people, so there's no comparison.

[Rayhan]

This thread is a perfect example of how art means something personal and different to everyone.

[Rivkin]

When I met stormtroopers I could not yet understand why someone would make such a choice. Life expectancy is 6 missions. Before then you'll probably bury every single friend you have. The missions are scary.

In some cases you earn a privilege of renting an apartment and eating in restaurants... does not seem to be enough.

Gradually I learned why they do it, and why some people enjoy the war in general.

There is obviously brotherhood of the kind you don't see outside. Respect, purpose, andrenalin. The True Hunt.

Great sense of freedom you only get after accepting death.

But there is one more reason you actually hear expressed often - honesty.

Its a job where at the end of the day you are either the one making the last round through the trenches and rending out the control shots. Or you are the one crawling and squealing for a few final hours, preventing defenders from getting a good night's sleep.

No peer review, no remote judges, no arbitrary rules. Pure and simple.

Before the war somebody can invent a story about Masamune taking on Mongolian boiler plate, and if enough professors repeat it, it becomes Science. Though it is not based on any contemporary or even later source. Possibly violates couple of things about metallurgy. If its published in a good enough journal its a Reference. It holds. As do the ratings and descriptions written 100 years ago, though few bother thinking where those actually came from.

But then comes the war and asks - would you bet your life on this and that belief? Your children's lives? Seriously?

And suddenly it turns out much what was considered scientific truth for the past 100 years was a convention from day one. Morality, borders, historical justice. Good war changes the world.

 

War. Death. Valhalla.

[Robert S]

2 hours ago, Jacques said:

Robots and machines make cars, not people, so there's no comparison.

Robots and machines weren't making Jaguar D-Types :-)  Those were hand crafted from start to finish.  Same with mid 30's Rolls Royces, which each had a unique body made by skilled craftsmen.  I agree that, for instance, a 2020 Toyota isn't a product of art and craft.  Although some of them may embody good design, as well as superb metallurgy, they completely miss the incredible dance between eye and hand that a great craftsman brings to his craft.  But there are still lots of people out there building one-off cars.  But enough about cars... back to nihonto :-)

[Robert S]

7 minutes ago, Rivkin said:

But then comes the war and asks - would you bet your life on this and that belief? Your children's lives? Seriously?

And suddenly it turns out much what was considered scientific truth for the past 100 years was a convention from day one. Morality, borders, historical justice. Good war changes the world.

 

War. Death. Valhalla.

I'm not sure there's ever good war... but sometimes necessary war.  The Ukrainians are certainly proving the heart of your thesis:  that war is the ultimate test of what works.

[sabiji]

21 hours ago, Jacques said:

Einen Yukihira mit der Takada-Schule zu vergleichen ist völliger Unsinn.

 

Nobody has done that here! The basic message was that the Takada swordsmiths already had a broader range of styles in the Muromachi - and with considerable quality - than many other “main schools” at the same time.
However, you have to be familiar with this subject matter. 

21 hours ago, Jacques said:

Shodai Tadayoshi hat noch nie Bungo Yukihira Utsushi gemacht;

And who said that? However, Fujiwara-Takada copied Hizen, and sometimes not so badly. It's no wonder that Saga (Hizen), Onizuka Yoshikuni (Chikuzen) and Bungo Takada are not far from each other. There were interactions. How and to what extent? I don't know, it would have to be researched. Nothing comes from nothing.

9 hours ago, Jacques said:

Kein Schwert ist unzerbrechlich; die japanischen Schwerter zerbrachen an den gekochten Lederbrustpanzern der Mongolen, was Masamune dazu veranlasste, neue Schmiedetechniken zu entwickeln. Die meisten Schwerter, die uns überliefert sind, wurden nie im Kampf eingesetzt – viele wurden gleich nach ihrer Herstellung gehortet und nur bei informellen Zeremonien getragen (was angesichts ihres Preises zu erwarten war). Die überwiegende Mehrheit der Kazu-Uchimono wurde während der Sengoku-Dynastie hergestellt und sind daher Koto. Ein Kunstschwert ist funktional, weil die Qualität der Verarbeitung es zu einem Kunstwerk macht. Ein Kunstschwert ist kein Schwert mit einem extravaganten Hamon, sondern ein Schwert, das in jeder Phase seiner Herstellung perfekt gefertigt wurde. Qualität des Stahls, Einzigartigkeit der Hada, Homogenität des Hamon, Anordnung des Nie usw.

So now I'm really disappointed! Do they really believe this Mongolian fairy tale? Masamune didn't reinvent the wheel. Take a look at Ko Hoki or Mokusa works.

There have always been swords that could be produced cheaply, quickly and in large quantities when there was a demand for them. Only most of these swords may have survived from the Sengoku Jidai.

I don't want to start a debate about the art sword for the 100th time. I just want to say, very shyly and cautiously, that you can take a closer look at bungo swordsmiths. Because I personally think that this source of swords is undervalued. It's not a commitment. It's a free hobby. That's all

[Bosco]

10 hours ago, Jacques said:

No sword is unbreakable; the Japanese swords broke on the Mongols' boiled leather breastplates, leading Masamune to devise new forging techniques. Most of the swords that have come down to us were never used in combat - many were hoarded as soon as they were made, and were only worn for informal ceremonies (which is to be expected, given their price). The vast majority of kazu-uchimono were made during the Sengoku-jidai, and are therefore koto. An art sword is functional because the quality of the workmanship makes it a work of art. A sword of art is not a sword with a flamboyant hamon, but a sword perfectly made at every stage of its manufacture. Quality of steel, uniqueness of the hada, homogeneity of the hamon, layout of the nie, etc.

 

Robots and machines make cars, not people, so there's no comparison.

Mongolian, Masamune… good story. Anything else to benefit your argument ?. 

[Bosco]

On 4/28/2025 at 1:41 AM, Rayhan said:

This observation is slightly harsh, I think they (Bungo smiths) are more utilitarian than artistic so they should be categorised in that spectrum. 

This Jac is clearly twisted his word whenever convenient to back up his statement. Other day he said he cares about it functionally rather than artistic/history . Now he twisted it around ??. 

[Jacques]

8 hours ago, Rayhan said:

This thread is a perfect example of how art means something personal and different to everyone.

Ask the NBTHK experts...

 

What's interesting is that collectors have the same mechanisms as climate skeptics: they think they know, when in fact they've only scratched the surface of the subject. Studying nihontö also means learning about the history of Japan and its civilizational practices (religion, castes, etc.).