NewB needs assistance in Mei translation

[BRUNROX]

Greetings All, I have been collecting blades for some time now, Civil War Southern knives being my main area of "Expertise"

I gradually changed to Japanese swords, with little to no knowledge of the History and traditions of these hand-made works of art. Needless to say, I have to admit that I'm in over my head. At first only admiring them for their Beauty, and now trying to understand the History. Any help would be greatly appreciated. I traded for it over the week-end, it was love at first sight, Wakizashi style with a 16" Nagasa. Hope the pics. are clear. Best Regards. Mario P.

 

http://i880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/ ... hi/009.jpg

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[Mark]

says No shu Ju Fujiwara Kanesada - meaning made by Kanesada of the Fujiwara clan who lived in Mino province

[BRUNROX]

Thank You very very much Mark. I guess I can Google him and get an aproximate date and more related info. Thanks Again.

Best Regards, Mario P.

[John A Stuart]

Mario, can we see more pics of this wak? John

[BRUNROX]

Hi John, Let's see if these come out Ok. 1st one is a little blurry. Any info you might be able to add would be appreciated.

Regards, Mario P.

 

http://s880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/ ... nt=011.jpg

http://s880.photobucket.com/albums/ac6/ ... nt=016.jpg

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[John A Stuart]

Hi Mario, That is an interesting sword. Very nice. i shall do a little research too. John

[BRUNROX]

Thank You John, there is a lot to learn and I'm fortunate to have found NMB. Regards, Mario P.

[John A Stuart]

It is hard to track down the particular Kanesada this may be. I would be inclined to think, due to the particular 'sada' kanji 定 and the use of Fujiwara with the place name of Noshu, that a safe bet would be the Shinto Seki Ha or possibly Mino Kanesada Ha. The signature of Noshu Seki Ju Fujiwara Kanesada crops up frequently in those groups and due to it being a wakizashi may have been truncated to Noshu Ju Fujiwara Kanesada, although that is seen as well. The shinto examples I have do not include all the possibilities. Many, many. John

[BRUNROX]

Thanks again John, very interesting all the possibles for this smith. For a moment I thought it was going to be "Easy". I thank all for leading me in the right direction. Any ideas as to the period ??? Best Regards, Mario P.

[Darcy]

There were several Kanesada smiths, the line starts in Mino in the 1400s. The most famous is the Nidai Kanesada, "Nosada".

 

In this case, the blade you have is a shinshinto Kanesada. The line seems to have continued or at least been resurrected (maybe some tenuous claims to the line at this point... 11th generation also signed as Kanemoto for a while).

 

I'm not aware of any Shinto Kanesada blades but it was indeed signed in shinshinto times. Fujishiro stops documenting them around the 4th generation and resumes with the 11th generation. So I would say that this is somewhere between the 9-11th generation Kanesada. The 11th generation stops work in Meiji. I think it's authentic.

[BRUNROX]

Thank You Darcy for your input, very interesting . I never would have gotten this far on my own. Will be asking for more help

very soon. Best Regards, Mario P.

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

The 11th Kanesada never signed that way. It seems the followers of the late Seki Kanesada moved to Iwashiro province and you can find a few in shinto era but none of them signed Noshu Ju Fujiwara Kanesada.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Darcy, I quickly jotted down some Shinto Kanesada smiths. There are others as well. Different Kanji for 'sada' for some.

Source M. Cox, Swords and Swordsmiths of Mino Province. John

 

Kanesada Ha of Mino

 

This group has a close relationship with the Seki Ha. These smiths use the E-shape “sada” 定

KANESADA (NOSHU), Keicho 1596) to Kanei era (1624). E-shape “sada”, lived in Shimizu, also called Izumi no Kami. [H]

Noshu Shimizu Ju Kanesada

Noshu Shimizu Ju Izumi no Kami Kanesada

KANESADA (NOSHU), Keicho era (1596). E-shape “sada” personal name is Matashichiro

KANESADA (SHlNANO NO KAMI), Tenwa era (1681). E-shape “sada”

KANESADA (TAJIMA NO KAMI), Jokyo era (1684). E-shape “sada” in Shinto Seki style.

Noshu Ju Tajima no Kami Fujiwara Kanesada

KANESADA (OMI NO KAMI) , Jokyo era (1684). E-shape “sada”.

KANESADA (SHINANO NO KAMI), Genroku era (1688). E-shape “sada”.

KANESADA (SEKI), Kyoho era (1716). E-shape “sada, lived in Seki, personal name is Denkuro.

KANESADA (SEKI), Kyoho era (1716). E•shape “sada” . lived in Seki, personal name is, Matazo.

KANESADA (SEKI), Kyoho 9 (1724). E-shape “sada”, lived in Seki, 2 character mei.

Kanesada

 

 

Shinto Seki Ha

This group uses the Box “sada” 貞

KANESADA (SHINANO NO KAMI), Genwa era (l615) to Tenwa era (1681). Box “sada”, lived in Seki and Sakakura, personal name is ?Shosho.

Sa Shosho Kanesada

Shinano no Kami Kanesada

Mino Sakakura Shinano no Kami Shosho Kanesada

KANESADA (SEKI), Kanei era (1624). Box “sada”, lived in Seki. Hada of itame and hamon of suguha-midare.

Noshu Seki Ju Kanesada

KANESADA (SUNSHU), Kanei era (1624). Box “sada”, worked in both Mino and Suruga province (Sunshu).

Sunshu Ju Kanesada

KANESADA (SHlNANO NO KAMI), Tenwa era (1681). Box “sada”, lived in Seki.

Shinano no Kami Kanesada

KANESADA (SEKI), Genroku era (1688). Box “sada”, lived in Seki.

Noshu Seki Ju Kanesada

KANESADA, Kyoho era (1716). Box “sada”, personal name is Heizo.

Kanesada Heizo

KANESADA, Kyoho era (1716). Box “sada”, personal name is Heisuke.

Kanesada Heisuke

[John A Stuart]

Often wakizashi are signed differently than katana. That's what I think is happening here. For example Noshu Ju Tajima no Kami Fujiwara Kanesada may sign waks only Noshu Ju Fujiwara Kanesada. BTW there were Kanesada smiths in the Aizu Kanesada Ha of Iwashiro and in the Echizen Seki Ha in shinto times, but, their signatures used other place names. John

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

KANESADA (SHlNANO NO KAMI), Tenwa era (1681). E-shape “sada”

 

It is shodai Kanesada (father of Kanesada Nosada) who received the Shinano no kami title and was also permitted to use the Kiku mon.

 

It seems the book written by Cox and based on the works of Hawley contains many errors.

[John A Stuart]

That's true with a lot of books, Jacques. You have to trudge through them and try to find other sources that either prove or disprove what is written. Like Darcy was saying the available information of the mainline Kanesada line has a gap. The smiths that have a fairly good reputation are documented, but, when there is a period where the craftmanship has regressed there tends to be little attention payed them. The Kanesada line going to the 23rd who had a cutlery shop must be the Kanesada Ha as it went into the shinshinto period via the Oshu smiths. As it appears to me anyway. I have always found tracking groups in the Seki tradition difficult, not only because of the prodigious amount of smiths and their work available and their itinerantcy, but, also because of the name changes. Some smiths had multiple names, further, when the son or other smith next in line came to head the line the previous head if still working would relinquish his name and take another while the son took the previous heads name. John

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

I'm wondering if the signature in question was not purely invented, with such a name it could be impossible to verify its authenticity.

 

 

About books, i only can deplore that some writers (books or articles) show an evident lack of rigor with the verification of their statements.

[John A Stuart]

A definite possibility. John

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

About books, i only can deplore that some writers (books or articles) show an evident lack of rigor with the verification of their statements.

 

I can only agree on this.

[BRUNROX]

Many many Thanks to all members who contributed and gave input on my Wakizashi. I can see it's not as cut and dry as I originally thought. Many books were searched for information , but no concrete answers. Best Regards to all, Mario P.