Dan tsuba Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 Hello all! Well, I have been wanting to post something like this for quite a while – so here it goes! I am still fairly new to tsuba collecting. I have been in this great hobby for only about 5 years. I wanted to share some of my experiences with new collectors. I think I have been fairly fortunate in purchasing some of my hand forged tsuba (which are entirely different from cast tsuba – maybe I can talk about that difference in a possible part 2 to this thread one day?). You can see some of my tsuba purchases on the “Kamon (motifs and shapes) thread”. I usually don’t spend over $200.00 U.S. for a tsuba. With diligent looking through purchase sites and knowing what to look for, you can find bargains (as I have sometimes been fortunate to find!). I thought it may be helpful for some to share what I look for in most of the tsuba that I purchase (I don’t know – maybe this post will be “part 1” of a few posts?). One of the fist things that I look for is if the tsuba seems to have been actually mounted on the tang of a sword blade. Like I stated, it is one of the first things I look for (there are several other areas of a tsuba that can be a “tell” if it is authentic, a copy, reproduction, or a fake!). But I just wanted to make this post simple for new collectors. What I do is I view the picture (whichever purchase site that is on) and look at the nakago-ana (the long triangular looking slot in the center of the tsuba to mount the tsuba to the tang of the sword blade). First, I look at the area around the nakago-ana to see if there are tagane-ato (punch marks around the nakago-ana). Those punch marks are made to fit the tsuba more securely to the tang of the sword blade. Those tagane-ato punch marks should appear “crisp” and could actually be punched fairly “deep” into the tsuba (on a cast piece they appear “rounded” and are fairly shallow). The next thing I look for in the nakago-ana is what is called sekigane. Sekigane is the (usually copper) filler used at the top or bottom (or both) areas of the nakago-ana to also help make the tsuba fit tight on the tang of the sword or to re-mount the tsuba on a different sword tang. When viewing the sekigane filler, I like to make sure that it goes through from one side of the nakago-ana of the tsuba through the nakago-ana to the other side of the tsuba. As stated above, if you check out some of my tsuba pictures on that “Kamon (motifs and shapes) thread” (and “zoom in" on them) you will get an idea of what I am talking about (some of those tsuba and another two of mine are shown below). Also (as stated above), this is only one of the first things I look for in a tsuba purchase. There are a few others. But I thought the viewing of the nakago-ana may be a good and fairly simple place to start. But, buyer beware! There are many fakes out there! From cast copies to newly made reproductions. The makers of some tsuba have even learned how to make “fake” tagane-ato punch marks and sekigane filler! And yes! I have been “burned” and “bit” more than once on a tsuba purchase! That stuff happens! But since I don’t spend a lot of money for my tsuba, the “burn” isn’t so bad, and I learn from my mistakes! So, maybe money well spent! Onward (maybe to “part 2” at a later date?)! With respect, Dan 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnTo Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 Hi Dan, Helpful post for new collectors. One point to comment on is the part about tagane . 'First, I look at the area around the nakago-ana to see if there are tagane-ato (punch marks around the nakago-ana). Those punch marks are made to fit the tsuba more securely to the tang of the sword blade. Those tagane-ato punch marks should appear “crisp” and could actually be punched fairly “deep” into the tsuba (on a cast piece they appear “rounded” and are fairly shallow).' Tagane-ato are also used instead of signatures. Some Higo tsuba have very shallow rectangular tagane (four at the top and seven at the bottom). NBTHK Hozon papers that I have seen with identical marks to mine attribute the tsuba to late Higo, rather than to a specific workshop or maker (see the three tree theme example attached). Nagoyamono tsuba are made of nigurome but often sold by auction houses and Japanese dealers as shakudo and have a characteristic pattern of three punch marks at the top and seven at the bottom. There are about 20 different themes apart from the one attached (treasure ship). I did post a warning about these sometime ago attributing them to 'Mr Suzuki's workshop', the name I gave to the unknown guy. These are often sold at inflated prices, IMHO, so buyer beware. Hope this is helpful, John 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 What i would mention about keep buying tsuba for 200 With 3 or more x 200 you could get something really special What im saying is, would rather have one exceptional tsuba than a drawer full of mediocre Same goes for swords or anything else collectable. Those 200s mount up. Sooner or later you will want to trade for better and have all the hassle of selling those 200s. 3 3 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan tsuba Posted January 6 Author Report Share Posted January 6 Hello Alex, I understand and appreciate what you said in your post. However, and I may have not made this clear (my fault!) I am trying to direct my thread (and posts) to those “new collectors” who can’t afford to spend a lot of money on tsuba. Now, $600.00 U.S. (as you stated that I could buy one tsuba for) is a lot of money to me (especially living from one social security check to another!). As stated in my post, if I spend $200.00 or less for a tsuba and get “burned” or “bit” by making a bad purchase I haven’t lost that much money. But if I spend $600.00 for a tsuba then I will have to go without food for a couple of weeks! Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!!! Also, I am not going to sell any of my tsuba. That will be up to my heirs! With respect, Dan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted January 6 Report Share Posted January 6 Ok Dan. Happy collecting! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan tsuba Posted January 6 Author Report Share Posted January 6 So, to those “new collectors” of tsuba (who are limited in their funds, as I am!) I would like to tell you about some of the bargains that may be found (if you are aware of some of the ways to ascertain if a tsuba is authentic - “tsuba purchasing knowledge” – although mistakes can still easily be made -as I have done once or twice -well that is how many times I will admit to!). The tsuba in the pictures shown that I included in my initial post to this thread were all purchased from Ebay (within about the last 5 months). Upon going back through my purchases, I found how much each piece cost me. In that initial post there are 5 of my tsuba shown. This is what I paid for each one (starting from top to bottom all in U.S. dollars)- 1. $53.00 2. $58.00 3. $127.00 4. $72.00 5. $85.00 Did I pay too much! I don’t think so, although others may think so! Personally, I think by using some of the “tsuba purchasing knowledge” I have described (and maybe continuing other “tsuba purchasing knowledge” -depending if newer members are interested-on a continuation to this thread?) I “lucked out” and added some nice tsuba to my collection! Anyway, I believe tsuba bargains can still be found! With respect, Dan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 For anyone just starting out my motto would be "Low and Learn" - I have to agree with Dan. Start off by not spending big money on something that as a beginner, you really don't know much about. Personally I don't know anyone who is born knowing a "good" tsuba from a "bad" one, it is something you need to learn. Something else to consider is that there are many sellers who also don't know what they are selling - this is a double edged sword [not nihonto obviously ] You can get real bargains at times simply because the person selling does not know what he has. Equally you can find sellers who have an inflated view of what something is worth. What we really need is to learn what something is worth not what it costs - I can show hundreds of tsuba valued by the sellers at hundreds or thousands of dollars but those same pieces may not have the value of the metal they are made from. So buying a $600 tsuba does not assure you it is worth that. Worth is also something of a personal viewpoint, it is not what someone else says it is, as much as what you 'feel'. 7 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 Good points, though feel i should explain a little further as don't want to sound like some kind of elitists asshole lol. Having collected various items for many years and many ups and downs, i cant help but butt in if i think it will do some good for some folks, An analogy. Some say that when your learning the guitar you should buy the best guitar you can afford. Why?, because no matter how good you get, with a bad guitar you are always going to sound bad. In that respect I'm in the same place as Dan, never had the spare money for the expensive £1500 Martin that i only ever tried out in guitar shops., all my money went into Nihonto. Instead, i bought lots of cheap guitars along the way that sound ok, but they are never going to sound like the Martin. Just one big waste of money. Owing the Martin would have prompted me to play more, learn more. A wow every time i picked it up, rather than i cant be assed with this lark. Im years behind what i should be. You don't have to keep buying cheap tsuba just for the sake of adding more and having a "collection". Save up and learn a long the way. For what you paid for all the tsuba above you are not far off owning probably the best value excellent carved tsuba i have ever owned, an ABSOLUTE beauty in hand. I had to sell when the job went bad and theres never a week where i don't regret it. You dont need to be an expert to know its a great tsuba, in hand, you couldnt help but say wow. https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/23939-black-wave-deeply-carved-kinko-tsuba/ Beginners can ask for help, that's what folks here like to do. Don't go out spending your money on something lacklustre when for a bit more you can buy really good tsuba, i agree you don't have to spend a lot. Even i buy cheap tsuba because the ones i like just happen to be cheap, lucky there. Some folks might know of good cheap tsuba that are great examples of their type and p.oint you in the right direction. A very good example of its type here, if still for sale. I bought it from the well known Shibui swords website for quite a bit more than what John is selling it for. Edo Amida Tosho with Mon, a great example of its type at a very good price, cant believe its still for sale. I need to point out that i am assuming its the same tsuba i sold John, as it was Tosho with Amida Yasuri. https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/46292-birmingham-antique-arms-fair-sunday-17th-september-2023/ All personal taste though, i suppose Anyways, no matter what, enjoy the journey. We all go about it in different directions but some can take short cuts. PS, as mentioned recently. You can learn a lot just by reading through old threads. Jeez, didnt realise this thread was so old, where is time going????????????? https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/18592-show-us-your-high-class-tosogu/ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 3 hours ago, Alex A said: You don't have to keep buying cheap tsuba just for the sake of adding more and having a "collection". I totally agree, the real aim is to get better at spotting the better options and becoming more discerning. The hard bit is stopping the addiction of these things once it takes hold - - and it does, I went from just having six for twenty years to now over three hundred! As you say help is always available from the forum members, if in doubt just ask. [ Question - How do I stop! ] 4 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 You just have to ask yourself Out of the 300, what could you definitely not ever be able to sell ? You may be surprised at the number you have left. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan tsuba Posted January 7 Author Report Share Posted January 7 Well, I would imagine tsuba collectors collect their pieces for a variety of different reasons! Some may purchase to enjoy and display their pieces; others may purchase to resell their pieces (maybe at a later date), and yet others may purchase pieces from a specific school or schools. My enjoyment in collecting tsuba is trying to purchase the best piece I can that is within my very limited spending budget! I display all my tsuba on my walls (I am running out of wall space!). By using my “tsuba purchasing knowledge” that I have gleaned over several years, I think I have been rather successful in my endeavor and how I enjoy the hobby! Anyway, to each his own! With respect, Dan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 One thing that i find a bit irritating is when folks start going on about CAST tsuba and how to avoid them. My philosophy is pretty straight forward in that respect. STOP looking at S*** tsuba With S**** looking carving and a lack of fine detail Had to say that 1 2 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 Remind me of those biscuits from 70s 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan tsuba Posted January 7 Author Report Share Posted January 7 Alex, my friend- Great posts about cast tsuba (the cookies look really good!)! And it verifies your posts about that if a new collector can afford to spend more money on tsuba, than that may be the way to do it. But for new collectors that don’t have a bunch of money to spend, cast tsuba can be a big pitfall and cast tsuba are sometimes very difficult to recognize. The nice pictures shown of the tsuba on the purchase site can be very misleading, at times! And I agree with Alex when he said, “Beginners can ask for help, that's what folks here like to do.” For those new collectors that are interested, I have included pictures of a cast iron tsuba below. In the first picture shown, (if the tsuba was actually not broken) at first glance the tsuba looks nice. It looks old, appears to have tagane-ato (punch marks), and has an interesting and fairly detailed motif. If it was being sold for a low price, the new collector may just go for it. But wait! Look at the other pictures! Again, buyer beware! Better to ask forum members than to lose (even a little) money. The forum members will be glad to help and offer assistance. I also included other pictures of a cast iron tsuba to show how cast iron tsuba could mislead new collectors! With respect, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tsuba gardener Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 I agree with these very helpful tips. I would also add that it's important to research before buying. Good resources are museum sites in the internet , and Shibui swords. And also the specialist Facebook groups though personally l have dropped many of these as many have gone from information to selling. However The Kamon Samurai Crests group is a useful resource as are Jakushi Tsuba and Asian export sword guards and Namban Tsuba. Don't be afraid of Japanese language only books as Google translate is helpful. Other books would be any on Japanese legends Japanese design motifs (Mon/Kamon) A Japanese -English character dictionary Handbook for Tsuba. Collectors or Japanese sword guards art. ,of war by Gary Murtha Early articles for Tsuba study enlarged and additionall early articles Tsuba collecting for beginners The Birmingham museum and art gallery Tsuba collection V2 and also catalogue of Tsuba in the permanent collection of the Birmingham museum and art gallery. The index of Japanese sword fittings and associated artists by Robert Haynes A brief history of Japanese sword fittings artisans Lethal elegance Handbook of Japanese sword fitting terms by Markus Sesko Translation of Tosogu no kigen by Markus Seske There are others, but the ones listed are affordable 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1kinko Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 If you live in the U.S. there are several Japanese sword shows per year. Nothing is better than holding and examining tosogu in person and in the company of other collectors and practitioners. Bring an optivisor or equivalent. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted January 7 Report Share Posted January 7 4 hours ago, Tsuba gardener said: Good resources are museum sites in the internet While I agree with looking over museum sites on the net - these can be as misleading with their descriptions as anywhere else. To be frank I have yet to find any museum that doesn't have at least a few cast tsuba. I wonder if museum collections reflect the proportion of cast tsuba in the general 'pool' available at the time they were donated? If the Metropolitan museum is anything to go by I wonder also how many tsuba have been trimmed from their donations over time? Cast tsuba appear in these prestigious museums. The V&A, the Ashmolean [England], the Metropolitan NY, Cleveland, Guimet [Paris], ROM [Canada], Rijksmuseum [Netherlands] Et al. If we are touching on cast tsuba we have to distinguish between those that could not be made without being cast and reworked [kinko for instance?] and those cast in iron to save time and no doubt money. The former are sought after while the later should be shunned - but you need the skill to detect them. Beginners please ask for assistance and don't be embarrassed to seek help, most of us "old timers" didn't have the luxury of the internet and the huge resources of this forum - so we made all the mistakes that you don't have to! 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steves87 Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 (edited) I don't want to go off topic too far, but on cast Tsuba within museum collections, it is likely they are part of a fonds and are significant not for anything other than their relationship within the fonds. Museum's may or may not know they are cast, but I would guess they likely do. Edited January 8 by Steves87 Clarification 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 21 minutes ago, Steves87 said: it is likely they are part of a fonds and are significant not for anything other than their relationship within the fonds. For those of us with no idea what a "fonds" is [which includes me!] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fonds Now the Fonz is a different matter. 1 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan tsuba Posted January 8 Author Report Share Posted January 8 So, just to continue for new collectors of tsuba on what “markers” or “tells” I use to determine if a tsuba is authentic. Besides the tagane-ato punch marks around the nakago-ana, I look for markings around the seppa-dai (the flat area around the nakago-ana) to see if any marks were left there by the seppa (small copper type washers used on both sides of the tsuba to mount it to the tang of the sword). If there are markings left by the seppa, that indicates to me that the tsuba was mounted (even though there may be no tagane-ato punch marks or sekigane filler in the nakago-ana – those punch marks and filler were described in my first post). Of course, not every tsuba will have seppa markings on them. But if they do, I take that as a good sign that the tsuba has been mounted on a sword. I have attached pictures of the seppa, and some of my tsuba which show the tell-tale markings of the seppa on the seppa-dai. The first picture shown after the seppa is a copper tsuba, the other pictures are of iron tsuba which show one or both of the “tells” described above or below. The next “marker” or “tell” I look for is if the holes (if the tsuba has these holes) on one or both sides of the tsuba close to the nakago-ana (some tsuba only have one hole, others two holes) have been filled in with copper or another metal. Those holes on the sides of tsuba (close to the nakago-ana) are called hitsu-ana. These hitsu-ana are there so that the small utility knife (kogatana and its handle- the kozuka) and the hair arrangement tool (kogai) can fit through the tsuba for easy access. These tools were placed in a slot (or slots) along the side of the swords scabbard (saya) and protruded through the tsuba (as previously stated - for ease of access to these tools). These hitsu-ana are further known as the kozuka hitsu-ana and the kogai hitsu-ana. The kozuka hitsu-ana (the hitsu-ana that is more oval shape than 3 lobed type kogai hitsu-ana shape) is always worn closest to the wearers body (just so it may be known how the tsuba with hitsu-ana are placed on the sword). In my opinion, if one hole (probably the kozuka hitsu-ana if the tsuba has two holes although not always the kozuka hitsu-ana, the kogai hitsu-ana may be the only hole filled in of the two holes) or if both holes (kozuka and kogai hitsu-ana) are filled in (this filling in of the hitsu-ana is called ategane) then that is a good indication to me that the tsuba is authentic. It indicates to me a type of “customization” of the tsuba by one of its owners. Again, pictures of my tsuba are shown. On those pictures I included, you can see one of the “markers” or “tells” I described. As stated previously, on some you can see both of those “tells”. And again, for the beginning collector of tsuba on a limited budget, one of the tsuba shown cost me about $150.00 U.S. The rest were less expensive. But again, as far as the new collector buying tsuba, it is “buyer beware”. The “fakers” have found ways to make it appear like one or both of these hitsu-ana have been filled in by scribing an outline (that represents a hitsu-ana) on the tsuba! So, look closely at the pictures of the tsuba on the purchase site! And remember, you can always ask for assistance on this forum. I hope this helps some new collectors (on a limited budget!). I just wanted to share! With respect, Dan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex A Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 Don't forget the tsuba that have no Hitsu-ana, Dan. Not so common but you do see them. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1kinko Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 How about those late edo period cast iron tsuba? Wouldn't they show where to seppa were placed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan tsuba Posted January 8 Author Report Share Posted January 8 Oh no my friend Darrel!! I know this is off topic here, but you started it! I don't exactly know what you meant in your last post. Could you please give a clearer explanation? I am perfectly willing to continue the "Tsuba casting molds?" thread if that is what it takes! And I also know many members will say "oh no, not again"!! Ha, ha, ha, etc!! With respect, Dan 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steves87 Posted January 8 Report Share Posted January 8 I think Darrel means: there were some cast Tsuba that were actually mounted, and these may show signs of wear, from where the seppa made contact.... how do you use the seppa indicator in this circumstance? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan tsuba Posted January 8 Author Report Share Posted January 8 Stephen, sir- Thank you for your opinion on what Darrel may have meant. Although I think that Darrel himself should clarify. Again, this is "off topic" here. I have re-visited the "Tsuba casting molds?" thread. I know, "oh no"!! With respect, Dan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1kinko Posted January 9 Report Share Posted January 9 Yup, Stephen K nailed it. Dale has also shown that many museum tsuba are casts but dating them, and guaranteeing they are actually old, remains the problem. Some museum pieces probably contain provenance information but I'm not aware of any invasive or non-invasive means of dating any tosogu or nihonto. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan tsuba Posted January 12 Author Report Share Posted January 12 So, for those new collectors of tsuba (on a limited budget, as I am!). Using some of the markers and tells described in my previous posts, I recently purchased the tsuba shown below. Cost (withdrawing the amount for free shipping from Japan and the wood box) about $85.00 U.S. per tsuba for this daisho set!! Bargains can still be had!!! With respect, Dan 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan tsuba Posted January 12 Author Report Share Posted January 12 Hello, new collectors! So, in my last post I displayed what I thought was a “good purchase” using the markers and tells I discussed in my previous posts. It appears that I received a “sad” emoji (personally, I think the whole “emoji” thing should be eliminated!!). So, is that member “sad” that I purchased what I consider a good purchase and they missed out on it?? Anyway, for whatever reason, some members on the forum seem to avoid me like the plague (or Covid 19)!! Don’t let that deter you from trying to make your own “bargain purchase” of tsuba by using some of the markers and tells that I have described in my previous posts! Remember, you can always ask for assistance from members of this forum. I am certain that they would be glad to help! And I consider this forum to be the world's best place to ask for assistance on tsuba . But hey, that is just my opinion!! So, you new collectors, go out there on those purchase sites and have some fun (within your spending budgets!). When in doubt, ask for help on this forum! With respect, Dan 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spartancrest Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 5 hours ago, Dan tsuba said: about $85.00 U.S. per tsuba for this daisho set!! Well you could have bought something very similar from a dealer for just under four and a half times the price - but how much better off would that be - https://japaneseswor...-echizen-tsuba-1800s Not much in my opinion! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1kinko Posted January 13 Report Share Posted January 13 OK, I'll bite- what is it, a slug and its trail of mucus? Or a slug on an upside down toadstool? What kind of vibes does it radiate? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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