Jim P Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 Hi all Can I get some thoughts from members on, if a sword is Orikaeshi-mei, and it is well done, and has past one level shinza will it be much a consideration if you try for a higher level I tried a search but did not get much thanks Jim Sorry all, It was not explained well if a sword is say tokubetsu hozon how much of a consideration is Orikaeshi-mei in a Kanbun era sword compared to say a Koto Era sword in a shinza. thanks Guido,for your thoughts. thank you. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted October 12, 2009 Report Share Posted October 12, 2009 If it's pre-Muromachi it even might go as high as Tokubetsu Jûyô - depending on the quality, of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DirkO Posted October 13, 2009 Report Share Posted October 13, 2009 Here's a link that might be usefull, but as said, it depends on the blade .... http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shinsa_Standards.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim P Posted October 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Hi all, thanks Dirk,I had a look a http://www.nihontocraft.com/Nihonto_Shi ... dards.html and after spending 2h looking at the posts on (NBTHK vs NTHK)and shinza I have learned a lot. I was trying to understand what the shinza team looks for in a Tokubetsu Hozon to Juyo sword and found out that you cannot define it like that, each shinza team will be different and as for Orikaeshi-mei its up to the shinza team on the day if its a factor in their judgment and Edo-period swords that are Orikaeshi-mei are not precluded from Juyo am I going in the right direction ? jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted October 14, 2009 Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 It is my understanding that, with only a very few exceptions, a sword made later than Nambokucho can not pass Juyo shinsa if it isn't ubu. Someone correct me if I'm mistaken. Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim P Posted October 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 14, 2009 Hi I just had a email from someone saying just that and you are correct ! I will post the email as soon as i get the ok from the sender thank you. :| jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim P Posted October 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Hi all, I was still a bit cloudy on it so a big thank you to Barry Hennick for this (For a shinto sword an orikeshi mei will mean that it cannot attain juyo status. I have never seen a Shinto blade with an altered tang getting juyo.There are so many to choose from that they can be picky.The Messageboard had it right - if an older blade by a high status smith yes it can get juyo and higher.) thanks jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Grey wrote : It is my understanding that, with only a very few exceptions, a sword made later than Nambokucho can not pass Juyo shinsa if it isn't ubu. Someone correct me if I'm mistaken. Grey Perhaps 2 of these exceptions : Two swords with Juyo Token, all have several mekugi ana ===> probably machi okuri. I don't know? http://www.iidakoendo.com/info/item/a173.htm http://www.iidakoendo.com/info/item/a128.htm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Hi, Jean, the two examples you provided have their nakago ubu (If i read correctly that's written on the paper). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 That's why I put an "?" at the end of my post. Extra mekugi ana don't interfere in the UBU notion. Is the description of these swords mentionned "machi-okuri" or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Hi, No mention of a Machi-Okuri (that cannot be, if a nakago is machi-okuri it cannot be called ubu) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 My question was based on the oshigata of the Tadamitsu (which seems in line wiith the picture of hamachi) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 The one exception to the rule that I know of is in the English "Token Bijutsu" #55 by NBTHK. The 2nd fold out oshigata is a Nanki Shigekuni katana: "The nakago is suriage with a kiri end." This sword is Tokubetsu Juyo. There is another suriage Shigekuni katana in issue #32 that is Juyo Bijutsuhin, but that is a government ranking, not one from the NBTHK. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric H Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 For comparison seems to be the same Tadamitsu, from Compton I, Lot 260, has ubu nakago Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Eric, I presume that it is from the description given because it is impossible to say from the picture as it is not the same sword, mekugi ana are not placed in the same way and we don't see the hamachi. Considering yours, the two bottom ones seems to be of the same diameter and "could" have been done at the same time. This would imply that the original mekugi ana is the upper one, so the nakago in this hypothesis "could" be ubu (meaning no machi okuri, in this case). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim P Posted October 15, 2009 Author Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Hi all ! what do some of the members think of the chances of this changing in the future as the pool get smaller ? thanks, jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric H Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Jean, As you say, the description says ubu. The IIda ToJu confirms clearly on the zufu nakago ubu, this is a fact. Both nakago's bear the signature going to the very end of the tip, it's not only a similarity, it's the way this smith used to sign. My conclusion therefore is, both mei's are undoubtedly ubu. The following pic from Compton's I. Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eric H Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Jean, sorry, both nakago's are ubu Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted October 15, 2009 Report Share Posted October 15, 2009 Hi, Both nakago's bear the signature going to the very end of the tip, it's not only a similarity, it's the way this smith used to sign There is several generation of Tadamitsu and this kind of mei ending near the jiri is a common feature for all Bizen smiths of this jidai. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Thanks Eric for this post. In fact I have checked some Tadamitsu nakago oshigatas, from the Fujishiro to Nihonto zuikan, trying to see if it was possible to find the position of the initial mekugi ana. Unfortunatelly, but for one or two examples, they had all several mekugi ana. It would be very interesting to find the different Koshirae done for the same blade, to see the corresponding Tsuka. Which makes me think (yes, it happens sometimes :lol: ) : Could a sword have had several mekugi ana used at the same time : e.g. battlefield koshirae/for Court koshirae/daily... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Hi, For you Jean :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Thanks a lot Jacques, I had this one on the zuikan but I was looking for an Hikobe one that I could not find. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Hi, Jean, Both Shodai and nidai Tadamitsu are named Hikobei. About mekugi placement, please have a look on our french forum, Student section, General points, mekugi ana . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Thanks Jacques, I know, but it seems that there is no Oshigata published in the afore mentioned books bearing the complete signature in line as in the sword for sale at Iida Koendo. Concerning mekugi ana, their placement vary according to the kind (variation) of signature by the same smith. And even with the same signature, we have seen it on the board, it happens that the mekugi ana may not drilled at the same place. The non-plugged mekugi ana is probably koto but the 2 other being plugged, it is hard to date them ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 HI, Concerning mekugi ana, their placement vary according to the kind (variation) of signature by the same smith. And even with the same signature, we have seen it on the board, it happens that the mekugi ana may not drilled at the same place. No, the mekugi-ana is always drilled at the same place (by need of efficacy), it is the signature which changes of location. In others word, the smith engraves his mei contingent on the mekugi-ana and not the opposite, even if the mekugi-ana is pierced after the mei was done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 the mekugi-ana is always drilled at the same place (by need of efficacy Interesting, but it seems that there are several possible locations, taking into account : - who drilled the mekugi ana (examples of smith mei being punched upon in some cases and not in other cases) - numbers of ubu nakago with several mekugi ana I let Guido, Reinhard, Ted, Clive give their opinion http://www.nihontomessageboard.com/mei_exercise.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 Hi, I have forgotten to specify that the mekugi-ana location depends on the lenght of the sword. numbers of ubu nakago with several mekugi ana On the battlefield, when a tsuka is broken, it is easier to recover a tsuka on another broken blade and to drill a new mekugi-ana to fit the tsuka than to make a new one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 In fact, to simplify, I think that smiths who drilled their own mekugi ana were very meticulous and followed always the same pattern considering a given mei and type of sword. If, as it happened sometimes, the mekugi ana was drilled by someone else, it could be anywhere, meaning not following necessarily any pattern but experience the mekugi-ana is always drilled at the same place (by need of efficacy) Taking into account the number of swords (Koto/Shinto/Shinshinto) having several mekugi ana, I very much doubt the theory (by need of efficacy) I had a Sukehiro Soshu tanto with 3 mekugi ana (ubu nakago) each clearly made to fit a definite koshirae. On the battlefield, when a tsuka is broken, it is easier to recover a tsuka on another broken blade and to drill a new mekugi-ana to fit the tsuka than to make a new one. Here you make a point, I haven't thought of this but driven by necessity it may have been done, but with a big reserve, it could have been a direct ticket to boothill (I love western movies), our members practicing tameshigiri can elaborate on this solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini Posted October 16, 2009 Report Share Posted October 16, 2009 On the battlefield, when a tsuka is broken, it is easier to recover a tsuka on another broken blade and to drill a new mekugi-ana to fit the tsuka than to make a new one. Here you make a point, I haven't thought of this but driven by necessity it may have been done, but with a big reserve, it could have been a direct ticket to boothill (I love western movies), our members practicing tameshigiri can elaborate on this solution. This situation reminds me past posts about the purpose of Yasurime. Effectively a long time martial artist should consider carefully the replacement. IMHO : 1) It's simply too hard and time consuming to find a new Tsuka fitting well enough your sword (lenght, width, high to fit Nakago) and it would be made when battle is over. If battle is over no hurge is bothering you to the point to make such a dangerous replacement. 2) Samurai always had spare Daito with them exactly for these occasions, often carried by somebodyelse during the whole campaign (the importance of logistics). In the case such spare swords wouldn't be available (any reason for high ranks, lack of them for lesser Samurai in Sengokujidai) and the battle still was on, better to pick up the whole sword from a dead. I've 2 spare Tsuka for my American-made Tameshigiri sword, guess a professional soldier did the same. Fitting tsuka is light, small, important. Wouldn't you carry one with you for your only sword if you have no spare weapons ? 3) The whole matter seems to not consider the existance of Wakizashi as extrema ratio during the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted October 17, 2009 Report Share Posted October 17, 2009 Hi, I've 2 spare Tsuka for my American-made Tameshigiri sword, That is a very important point for comparison That's only your point of view, have you some reliable sources to give us? War is not only campains, or battle like Sekigahara. At that time everybody was armed at least until the first katana-gari. You speak about samurai but you forget all those who are not rich enough such ronin or bandits, you forgot all the poor samurai during the rebellion of Satsuma Your vision of the Japanese history is too superficial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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