Jump to content

NEW BOND STREET RESULTS


Recommended Posts

This is part of the footnote to the Ichimonji wak.

I’m really struggling to understand the validity of the second and third sentences. 


Martensite, the hardest state of sword steel, is not represented in nature, but is produced only by the craft of the swordsmith. Its distribution along the ha of this blade validates the antiquity of the sword, and the scientific study indicates that it was used as a weapon in the past. The distribution of martensite along the cutting edge indicates that the blade was subjected to one or more re-shaping and polishing. 

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry Colin, but isnt it a special Kake for a special recipient.

Mailed Bonhams for a copy of the „ pioneering „ study. Anyone can explain that including the „ diamond „ light. Star wars theme..

 

Best Peter

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, Kurikata said:

Surprisingly more than half tosogu have been  kept unsold. Why? Some doubts about their origin ? Most of them gimei ?

Bruno, I think several reasons…

1. estimates that are far too ambitious

2. the 28%+vat buyers premium

3. a very slow buyers market

4. Bonhams have some very serious and capable competition from Gallery Zacke in Vienna

 

in fact the sale looks a disaster overall for Bonhams….again.  Quick glance….50% of Lots unsold. 

1 hour ago, PNSSHOGUN said:

What am I missing here, 28,000GBP for a Netsuke.....?

Hi John, Netsuke have always been (and still are) the strongest element of the Japanese market and seem to appeal to a wide and extremely wealthy client base! The rarer subjects or carvers can reach astonishing heights….the netsuke in question is by a highly sought after artist, it’s a superb subject and it has a massively impressive provenance. Some have fetched far far more!….and prices are still going up. 

  • Like 1
  • Love 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

Bruno, I think several reasons…

1. estimates that are far too ambitious

2. the 28%+vat buyers premium

3. a very slow buyers market

4. Bonhams have some very serious and capable competition from Gallery Zacke in Vienna

 

in fact the sale looks a disaster overall for Bonhams….again.  Quick glance….50% of Lots unsold. 

Hi John, Netsuke have always been (and still are) the strongest element of the Japanese market and seem to appeal to a wide and extremely wealthy client base! The rarer subjects or carvers can reach astonishing heights….the netsuke in question is by a highly sought after artist, it’s a superb subject and it has a massively impressive provenance. Some have fetched far far more!….and prices are still going up. 

At least there are no custom taxes for european collectors when purchasing at Zacke or Czerny's.... american or british auction houses have lost their continental european buyers...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Matsunoki said:
6 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

This is part of the footnote to the Ichimonji wak.

I’m really struggling to understand the validity of the second and third sentences. 


Martensite, the hardest state of sword steel, is not represented in nature, but is produced only by the craft of the swordsmith. Its distribution along the ha of this blade validates the antiquity of the sword, and the scientific study indicates that it was used as a weapon in the past. The distribution of martensite along the cutting edge indicates that the blade was subjected to one or more re-shaping and polishing

 

 Colin,

 

Not sure exactly what you mean by "validity"? 

 

FWIW,

 

 

Images are not the greatest. The description statements may be valid, but I don't know how they can be verified based only upon these images. Which doubles down on the sound advice that nihonto must be studied in hand, especially if purchase or bidding is being considered without approval or return.

 

 

Quote

Its distribution along the ha of this blade validates the antiquity of the sword, and the scientific study indicates that it was used as a weapon in the past.

 

This statement is talking about the presence of and referring to the quality (brightness, consistency, distribution) of the nioi (perhaps? possibly accompanied by ko nie?/nie?) in the habuchi/hamon. This is what would be expected in a Fukuoka Ichimonji blade (confirmation).


 

Quote

 

The distribution of martensite along the cutting edge indicates that the blade was subjected to one or more re-shaping and polishing. 

 

 

 

Sounds like the ha may have been raised perhaps due chips in previous polishes?, and may, just may?, reflect upon some of the activity nearest the ha of showing signs of being polished down. 

 

 

 

Regards,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, Franco D said:

Not sure exactly what you mean by "validity"? 

Franco…..basically I fail to see how the “distribution of martensite along the ha”validates the antiquity (ie the age) of the blade. Do we not find martensite along the ha on blades of all ages? How does it prove this swords age?

 

…and how does scientific study prove it was used as a weapon? Many things apart from combat can damage a blade….kids playing with it, cutting the hedge with it, dropping it, letting it rust etc etc

 

……sounds like a lot of “marketing speak” to me……

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

52 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Franco…..basically I fail to see how the “distribution of martensite along the ha”validates the antiquity (ie the age) of the blade. Do we not find martensite along the ha on blades of all ages? How does it prove this swords age?

 

…and how does scientific study prove it was used as a weapon? Many things apart from combat can damage a blade….kids playing with it, cutting the hedge with it, dropping it, letting it rust etc etc

 

……sounds like a lot of “marketing speak” to me……

 

Hello Colin,

 

Old swords have a quality about them (the nioi, the nie, the ko nie) that are unique unto themselves which sets them apart. It's not that other period swords aren't excellent swords, they are, they're just not the same. The difference is visible.

 

Chips alone do not prove that a sword had seen actual use. Without further detail about exactly what this scientific proof mentioned is, we don't know. 

 

 

Regards,

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

57 minutes ago, Franco D said:

Old swords have a quality about them (the nioi, the nie, the ko nie) that are unique unto themselves which sets them apart.

Franco…..yes I do fully understand that but it is knowledge and experience that usually leads us to the age, I still cannot see how science reaches the same conclusion unless those doing the analysis understand such features. I guess we need to see the full scientific narrative. if such tests were reliable and accurate surely we would have encountered them before?

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That Ichimonji wakizashi and Tsugunao wakizashi were both really nice items.

 

However I would advice being very cautious with the auction houses. For example the "premium" sword in upcoming Zacke auction seems to be extremely questionable tachi with attribution to Rai Kunimitsu and 15,000€ estimate (+ 30% buyers premium etc.): https://www.zacke.at...&sd=0&pp=96&pn=1&g=1

 

Well that same sword sold at Yahoo JP this february for 537,000 yen (3,500€): https://buyee.jp/ite...auction/j1081148557/ Seems like habaki was switched for possibly cheaper one too for the Zacke sale. When something passes at Yahoo JP at very cheap price it would be highly unlikely it would be hidden gem as there are many eyes with knowledge scouting there as well as multiple sword dealers probably keep checking items in there too.

  • Like 7
  • Love 1
  • Thanks 1
  • Sad 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

.yes I do fully understand that but it is knowledge and experience that usually leads us to the age, I still cannot see how science reaches the same conclusion unless those doing the analysis understand such features.

 

Colin,

 

In hope of understanding what you're saying and concerns?

 

FWIW, an indirect reply. A story.

 

My first introduction to kantei came while standing in front of the Rochester Study Group display table at a Rochester NY gun show.

There I stood watching a stalky fellow walk up and hand a somewhat tall slightly bald professor looking gentleman a wakizashi. This tall fellow held the sword up to the dome lighting first observing its profile and then looking up and down the sword for about 30 seconds longer. He then turned to the stalky fellow and said a series of Japanese words which I didn't understand. Then, with permission this tall fellow took a pin pusher that hung down from his neck on a lanyard and proceeded to quickly and effortlessly remove the handle of this sword exposing the Japanese characters chiseled into the tang. As he read these characters, I recognized that they were the exact same words that he had said only moments before. The smile that came over the stalky fellows face said it all.

My thought in observing what had just taken place was, 'I've just got to learn how to do this!' 

Knowledge, experience, of course. But the fact that kantei can be repeated, taught and learned, ending up with the correct answer time and time again is what makes it science as well. 

 

 

Regards,

  • Like 3
  • Love 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Franco D said:

In hope of understanding what you're saying and concerns?

Franco, I think we are talking at cross purposes. 

I am not in any way disputing what this sword is. I have not seen it and even if I had my opinion is worth nothing. It has a Juyo appraisal.

I have taken part in a few Kantei sessions and am familiar with them although I am not very good (but that doesn’t bother me….I am happy doing what I do)

What I am saying is simply that I do not give any credence to the scientific tests that are mentioned in Bonham’s footnotes. Have you looked at the establishment that conducted them? Look at their website. I doubt they know one end of a Japanese sword from the other. Ok, they may have conducted tests that doubtless show the metallurgical structures and compositions (but that is nothing new) but do THEY have the knowledge to interpret them sufficiently to determine the age? I doubt it….that is all I am saying.

Colin.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...