Worth $10?

[DDangler]

Upon doing a little cleaning on the Tsuba, I found some decoration and it appears the foliage is inlaid with brass. 

[DDangler]

13 minutes ago, Geraint said:

Ah, so from these pictures the habaki is gilt rather than foiled.

 

There is a special oil which I like because it has a little clove oil in it and I always associate the smell with Japanese swords but any light oil will work perfectly well.

 

All the best.

I presume gilt is less desirable? 
 

Would Remoil be appropriate? 

[drbvac]

As per another's suggestion are you hesitant to use acetone to try and remove some of the paint from the Tsuba and other metal parts?  It may reveal some lighter carvings and effects that are under the heavy coat of ugly red !

[DDangler]

2 minutes ago, drbvac said:

As per another's suggestion are you hesitant to use acetone to try and remove some of the paint from the Tsuba and other metal parts?  It may reveal some lighter carvings and effects that are under the heavy coat of ugly red !

I don’t have acetone handy. I used some mineral spirits and it didn’t do much. I’m currently letting rem oil bake into the blade. I have been able to remove much of the excess rust (especially at the tip). 
 

I will pick some acetone up and see if that helps remove some of the paint. I don’t believe the tsuka has anything under the rope wrapping. I’ve tried to separate the rope and it appears it’s just wood underneath. Which is what was under the metal piece with the fish closest to the Tsuba. 

[Stephen]

I'm with Brian rust on tang may be hiding a Mei. Makes sense to me that it would rust were it was inscribed.

As said no scrubbing just soaking in oil tapping with a wooden spoon until it flakes off repeat if necessary. 

The longer it sets in the oil rag the better.

[DDangler]

24 minutes ago, Stephen said:

I'm with Brian rust on tang may be hiding a Mei. Makes sense to me that it would rust were it was inscribed.

As said no scrubbing just soaking in oil tapping with a wooden spoon until it flakes off repeat if necessary. 

The longer it sets in the oil rag the better.

Alright. I will try it. 

[Larason2]

Remington gun cleaning oil is frequently recommended for cleaning swords, but I would be careful to make sure it doesn't have any solvents in it. That's why WD40 isn't recommended. You can just use mineral oil, but I agree oil with a bit of clove oil in it smells good, and it is what is traditional.

[Larason2]

Likely being taken as a souvenir by a soldier is what I meant by military history. I agree there is no evidence it was requisitioned for use by the Japanese military.

[DDangler]

7 minutes ago, Larason2 said:

Remington gun cleaning oil is frequently recommended for cleaning swords, but I would be careful to make sure it doesn't have any solvents in it. That's why WD40 isn't recommended. You can just use mineral oil, but I agree oil with a bit of clove oil in it smells good, and it is what is traditional.

Too late. Been drowning this thing to death with REM oil. It says it has no CFC’s. 
 

At this point it is what it is. 

[Ooitame]

I agree it may have been carried by a Japanese soldier. The laquer is my que to trying to match other sword fittings and Koshirae of the time.

36 minutes ago, Larason2 said:

Likely being taken as a souvenir by a soldier is what I meant by military history. I agree there is no evidence it was requisitioned for use by the Japanese military.

 

[DDangler]

5 minutes ago, Ooitame said:

I agree it may have been carried by a Japanese soldier. The laquer is my que to trying to match other sword fittings and Koshirae of the time.

 

So you’re saying I should not remove the paint? 

[John C]

Joel:

Just my opinion, however I would get rid of the red paint. I cannot think of any reason a ww2 soldier would have done that (along with the cord wrap) so my guess would be post-war alteration. Island job? Could be, but again not with bright red paint. Getting rid of the paint will allow you to see details and take it back to a more original state. 

John C.

[SteveM]

As someone above mentioned, it may be red lacquer. Lacquer was, once upon a time, commonly used as a protectant and sealant. 

[DDangler]

22 minutes ago, John C said:

Joel:

Just my opinion, however I would get rid of the red paint. I cannot think of any reason a ww2 soldier would have done that (along with the cord wrap) so my guess would be post-war alteration. Island job? Could be, but again not with bright red paint. Getting rid of the paint will allow you to see details and take it back to a more original state. 

John C.

The rope wrapping looks like it’s all that’s there. There is a thin layer of something very cream colored (looks like 3 mil visqueen) under the rope and then wood. I see no signs of any thing else. I most likely will not be removing it. I’m 90% sure there is nothing substantial underneath which leads me to believe it may have been put there on purpose. 

 

Thank you for your input though. 

[DDangler]

Some of the fittings after a nice acetone soak. 
 

Do these pics help at all with identification or a clarification of age or period? 

[rematron]

It looks like there might be ito wrap underneath the string wrap.  I like the fuchi.  In my novice view it appears to be Edo era tosogu.

 

Edit: I wrote "ito" but I was thinking "same".

[DDangler]

I’m under the impression the wrapping on the tsuka may be original? What’s underneath doesn’t appear to be big enough to fit nicely in a hand. Also, the wrapping is quite similar to the one in this print. 

[DDangler]

13 minutes ago, rematron said:

It looks like there might be ito wrap underneath the string wrap.  I like the fuchi.  In my novice view it appears to be Edo era tosogu.

Thanks for the insight. I do not believe it is ito underneath the string. It is a very thin layer of something. It doesn’t look like Ray or shark skin either. It’s smooth. I haven’t delved deeper than two rings of rope though so maybe there is something farther down. 

[Matsunoki]

The red twine wrapping is not original. The image above isn’t showing.

[DDangler]

8 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

The red twine wrapping is not original. The image above isn’t showing.

It shows for me. 

[Brian]

No, the wrapping is 100% certainly not original. During or post war almost certainly.

[Matsunoki]

The image is now showing.

The red twine wrapping is nothing like that used on armour, the only thing it has in common is that it’s red.………..as we have already said it has been added later most likely by a GI bringing it back from Japan (they liked to do this type of fancy binding) or done for general use on a farm or similar ….hence the protective red paint. Both options are common. 
We cannot tell the age of the blade from the fittings……blades could have many different sets of fittings during their life. The ones on your wak are most likely early 19thC but in this condition impossible to say for sure. The silver fish is a Koi carp…..a nice subject matter. The tsuba looks like a hut under trees.

The material under the twine is most likely ray skin and may have been smoothed before doing the twine work. I think  we can maybe see the central join of the same wrap where you have moved the twine.

[DDangler]

3 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

The image is now showing.

The red twine wrapping is nothing like that used on armour, the only thing it has in common is that it’s red.………..as we have already said it has been added later most likely by a GI bringing it back from Japan (they liked to do this type of fancy binding) or done for general use on a farm or similar ….hence the protective red paint. Both options are common. 
We cannot tell the age of the blade from the fittings……blades could have many different sets of fittings during their life. The ones on your wak are most likely early 19thC but in this condition impossible to say for sure. The silver fish is a Koi carp…..a nice subject matter. The tsuba looks like a hut under trees.

The material under the twine is most likely ray skin and may have been smoothed before doing the twine work. I think  we can maybe see the central join of the same wrap where you have moved the twine.

Thank you for your help. I’m asking questions because I don’t know.
 

I was not talking about armor but the tsuka on the nihonto the samurai is carrying. I presume it would be hard for an artist to depict so many small strands tightly wound together. I am not negating you alls expertise or experience. I am just posing questions from what I can see that’s similar and how it physically looks in my hand.
 

So if you and Brian are correct (I’m not inferring you’re not), does that mean the twine has replaced the ito? 

If it has, would it be more prudent to leave it instead of having to replace with modern replacement ito? 

[Matsunoki]

Almost certainly….the twine has replaced the silk ito which has a habit of falling to bits over time.

As to wether to remove or leave…..it’s really your call. The twine is now part of its history and as the sword has limited value it would probably not be worth having a professional rewrap done in ito. On the other hand you might discover a decent same (ray skin) wrap under the twine which might clean up nice up nicely….or it might also be wrecked because that also had a habit of falling to bits if neglected when the ito fell off.

If it were mine, I’d leave it on as a piece of history. It has after all been very well done…..just not by the Japanese.

[Stephen]

So how is the oil soaked nakago coming along?

[DDangler]

38 minutes ago, Matsunoki said:

Almost certainly….the twine has replaced the silk ito which has a habit of falling to bits over time.

As to wether to remove or leave…..it’s really your call. The twine is now part of its history and as the sword has limited value it would probably not be worth having a professional rewrap done in ito. On the other hand you might discover a decent same (ray skin) wrap under the twine which might clean up nice up nicely….or it might also be wrecked because that also had a habit of falling to bits if neglected when the ito fell off.

If it were mine, I’d leave it on as a piece of history. It has after all been very well done…..just not by the Japanese.

Thank you!! I agree.  I notice paint under the twine as well so if I was a betting man I’d put money on the paint won’t come off the Ray skin without damaging it. I don’t think I will even try to remove the paint from the twine. I will strictly stay to removing the paint from the fittings. 

Edited June 7, 2023 by DDangler
Typo

[DDangler]

39 minutes ago, Stephen said:

So how is the oil soaked nakago coming along?

No news yet. I had it soaking in a rag and when I opened it up, it was all dry. I will probably lay the entire blade in a container of the least harsh oil I can find for a few weeks. Then see what happens. I use this method on tools but I use motor oil. I will find something less gnarly to use to soak this in. 

[John C]

28 minutes ago, DDangler said:

No news yet.

Joel:

It looks as if the tsuka has assembly numbers (or an assembler name) on the end of the tsuka. That suggests to me that it is ww2 era?

John C.

[DDangler]

17 minutes ago, John C said:

Joel:

It looks as if the tsuka has assembly numbers (or an assembler name) on the end of the tsuka. That suggests to me that it is ww2 era?

John C.

Where do you see these numbers? I never noticed them. 

[Stephen]

Their used to keep item assembled.