Ubu wakizashi or suriage koto nagamaki??

[Matsunoki]

ALL OPINIONS SOUGHT! Many thanks  in advance
I  was attracted to this wakizashi by the nice overall and untouched iron koshirae and from images I thought I was buying an ubu mumei shobu zukuri wakizashi. However looking more closely I believe it could possibly (or not!) be a suriage koto nagamaki on account of the hamon clearly and strongly disappearing off down the nakago …..and the overall sugata. I have tried to image the salient features but the polish is old and worn -

The nakago has a deep black patina and is considerably thicker than the blade so if suriage it was done some time ago

Hamon runs into nakago with no variation…..hataraki not visible…..worn polish

Very high shinogi and very narrow mune

Dark steel with a rough dirty look and irregular gunome hamon

Coarse hada a mixture of mokume and itame. Some mokume burls grouped in 3s

 

Happy to make an idiot of myself…..maybe Mino den late Muromachi?

What do you think?

All the best

 Colin

 

[Alex A]

Hi Collin

 

Very nice,

 

I can see your quandary, why you think shortened.

 

First thought was "should there be more ana than just the one", if shortened. Turns out you find shortened Nagamaki with one ana, like yours.

 

Second thought was, its looks Ubu, with the neat Nakago-jiri 

 

Then i thought, is it possible it is one of the oddball schools where you see UBU swords where the hamon runs into the nakago.

An Uda blade, as an example https://www.christies.com/en/lot/lot-4461836, though later such schools ?

 

Cant make my mind up either yet haha, need a lot more time than i have now, see why your saying Mino.

 

Ps, could do with length measurement and a really good pic of the blade showing the hamon clearer, i find a pic with the sun behind you works good on blades in older polish.

 

Sure someone else will chime in

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

25 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Ps, could do with length measurement and a really good pic of the blade showing the hamon clearer, i find a pic with the sun behind you works good on blades in older polish.

Hi Alex. Thanks for looking. Nagasa 38cm but it’s a lot heavier/meatier than most “normal” shinogi zukuri wakizashi of the same length. 
I’ve tried everything to get better images…….but what you see is the best I can do sadly. Bizarrely the images of hada and hamon are a bit better than what you see with naked eye!!

All the best. Colin

[ROKUJURO]

Colin,

 

to clear the question of NAGINATA NAOSHI I would focus on the BOSHI to look if there is a form of KAERI or a cut-off HAMON.

Otherwise, that NAKAGO does look UBU indeed.

[Toryu2020]

I vote wakizashi -

for photos try  the "dark room" trick - set it up in a completely dark room and then use the flash on your camera - surprising things are sometimes revealed...

 

-t

[Rivkin]

It has relatively thick kasane so either post 1380, or Kamakura.

Kamakura does not really match the work. Its not Yamato but Soshu.

It has kaeri, so it was not reworked on this end, more likely to be a waki.

The nakago is finished with more care, than typical for suriage. It also has late Muromachi proportions.

 

Its probably Mino or Shimada waki, Tenbun era.

Alternative is Mino Kanenobu naginata naoshi, but personally does not feel that way.

[Matsunoki]

10 hours ago, ROKUJURO said:

to clear the question of NAGINATA NAOSHI I would focus on the BOSHI to look if there is a form of KAERI or a cut-off HAMON.

Hi Jean, the sword does have an intact boshi with kaeri….you can just about see it in the image of the kissaki area. However (and I’m probably wrong) I thought some of the early nagamaki/naginata were actually made in this sugata rather than the more “normal” naginata form?

 

9 hours ago, Toryu2020 said:

for photos try  the "dark room" trick

Hi Thomas. Thanks for the tip but I use my old iPad (don’t have any other cameras) and it doesn’t have a flash! ….getting a bit left behind by tech sadly.

 

7 hours ago, Rivkin said:

more likely to be a waki.

Hi Kirill, thanks for your thoughts. I’m leaning towards Waki as well……but still can’t quite reconcile the strength that the hamon disappears into the nakago with. It doesn’t look machiokuri so we can’t blame that. Greatly appreciate your help.

[DoTanuki yokai]

I would say Tomoe shape Naginata, it looks so straight in the beginning with the curvature starting at the middle of the blade. 

[Alex A]

8 hours ago, Matsunoki said:

……but still can’t quite reconcile the strength that the hamon disappears into the nakago with. It doesn’t look machiokuri so we can’t blame 

 

Hi Colin, this is what i would do.

 

Study the blade and its characteristics, then come up with school and approx age.

 

Find other examples of said school and look at swords that are Ubu.

 

You might be surprised to find other examples of that school which are Ubu and the hamon runs into the nakago, like yours.

 

Ive done the same and found similar with a sword i once had.

 

I think its a bit ignorant of us to say that every sword made had the hamon finish at an identical spot, on every blade ever made in history.

 

As said, ive seen it with Uda, 

 

Years ago now and cant remember where i read or was told about it, but pretty sure someone mentioned a reason why you may see this, as the odd school thought it made for a stronger blade less likely to break in a particular spot.

 

Wish i could add more detail, but just going of old memories of discussions here.

[Matsunoki]

55 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Study the blade and its characteristics, then come up with school and approx age.

 

Find other examples of said school and look at swords that are Ubu.

Afternoon Alex. You make it sound so easy!!!!!
I will freely admit to being thoroughly confused most of the time when attempting any form of “kantei”. I’ve been away from swords for over 30 years and what I learned first time round has been long forgotten…..and was probably wrong anyway as the level of knowledge in the uk back then was very shaky….no internet…just Hawley, Yumoto, Ogasawara and Robinson plus a few books in Japanese. We did have the Token (of which I am a member) but attending  meetings in London were (and still are) difficult living where I do plus it was a bit “exclusive” back then.

Sadly the condition of this sword and the absence of a Mei makes it rather daunting for me. My best shot was late Muromachi Mino den. I see from the replies that I have been lucky enough to receive that people with far far greater expertise than me have some conflicting opinions and that at least reassures me that I’m not a totally lost cause! 
I’m also hampered by a dodgy short term memory especially for names which would include smiths, periods, schools and even the gokaden! That’s not an excuse, sadly it’s a fact.

And so, accepting my limitations, I will continue to try and buy swords (not just blades) that I like (irrespective of who may or may not have made them) ………enjoy them, preserve them  …….and come begging to this amazing forum and the generous people like you for help when I hit the brick wall! That is my way of collecting……and it’s the most fun I’ve had for a long time!

Thank you again for your assistance and time.

all the best. Colin.

[Alex A]

Hi Colin,

 

These naginata type, i aint that familiar with.

 

When i look at the pic without the mounts, it does come across very chunky for an intended one handed sword.

 

Im not sure one way or another 

 

If you find it difficult in hand then a lot harder for us here.

 

I cant even make out the hamon properly, not sure if i see notare thrown in with the gunome, and if thats the case then it opens over doors that ive been considering. Especially when you mention mokume/itame and dark steel. 

 

You thought about getting it polished ?, 

 

 

[Matsunoki]

19 minutes ago, Alex A said:

You thought about getting it polished ?, 

 

Evening Alex
I’d love to get all my swords polished…..but how? Don’t want to send swords all around the world and encounter the problems that seem to proliferate nowadays. (I’ve had my share of problems with carriers, border force et al) Only one (as far as I know) respected polisher in the UK and I’m on his 2 yr waiting list with 2 swords. I can live with swords in poorer polish as long as I like them as a “complete unmolested package”. I would always prefer a slightly tired polish in original koshirae than the same blade in shirasaya.  To be honest, there is less to worry about if it’s a little bit rough ….I’ve got an Ishido school Katana and some nice Gendai/Shinsakuto  in mint polish and shirasaya and they make me nervous as hell🙂

On this sword I’ve changed my mind several times….naginata vs Wak……you can argue it both ways……and we may never be certain….

….but I’ve at last learned to be comfortable with uncertainty!🙂….especially as I am still recovering from nearly dying in hospital with severe food poisoning! That makes you think a bit. 
PS - keep away from Chopstix chicken noodles!!!!!!

Best. Colin

 

[Alex A]

Maybe send it along with the other swords and get the polisher to let you know what he thinks, bet it would come up nice.

 

Saying that though, im a bit like you in that i can now live with a sword in older polish, rather than mess about, get it.

 

One for the back burner, for now.

 

You have some clues to go at, bit more looking into needed. Good one to look into as well, different.

 

Luckily, don't eat noodles haha

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Alex A]

Was window shopping and noticed this one https://www.e-sword.jp/wakisashi/2210-2045.htm

 

Blade length almost identical, Kirill mentioned late Muromachi proportions.

 

Similar shaped nakago too.

 

Always good to find stuff to compare to.

[Matsunoki]

Thanks Alex, that is very kind of you. Interesting…..very similar shape…maybe mine has a bit more sori towards the kissaki. The big differences are that mine has a much higher shinogi and a far narrower mune. What that tells me I’m not sure🙂 . Shame we can’t see the true hamon in the sword….reminds me how much I detest Hadori polish. Mine is in far worse polish but at least you can see what the basic hamon is (in hand).  I would not have seen this sword….I don’t follow any Japanese websites. Maybe I should!

 

 

36 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Always good to find stuff to compare to.

[Alex A]

On a wet and miserable Friday afternoon and the misses out, nothing better than drinking beer and window shopping.

 

 

Just don't drink too much, you might buy something.

[Matsunoki]

12 minutes ago, Alex A said:

Just don't drink too much, you might buy something.

I’ve been on the forum a lot in last two weeks. The dehydration that came with my food poisoning caused gout in both feet so I’ve been chairbound nursing some ******** sore big toes and using the forum as diversion therapy. Thus had to watch the booze intake but a bottle of Shiraz and a large glass is now heading my way. As for buying…..I have that chronic disease anyway but that only hurts the wallet not the feet🙂

Cheers Alex, have a blurred evening.

[Ooitame]

It does look ubu to me. Interesting piece and nice find, Congratulations. If you get it polished or send for shinsa let us know.