Tsuba casting molds ?

[Spartancrest]

8 hours ago, DoTanuki yokai said:

they had a lot of time to take damage from various sources. 

They sure did, I think that point is most of the argument. Just how long have some of these been getting around?

There are plenty of really well made pieces that have suffered badly through abuse or neglect so it gets hard guessing just how good they started out as. Cast pieces are in the same boat. It keeps us guessing 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all (again!).

 

So, there I was again searching the internet.  One thing led to another, and I got referred to some previous threads on this forum dealing with cast iron tsuba in the Edo period.

 

Looking at those threads, it reminded me of how on a forum some very interesting threads (at least I think they were interesting - and yes- I contributed to those threads!) can get “lost” in the shuffle!

 

I include those weblinks below for anyone that is interested.

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/43646-an-edo-period-cast-iron-tsuba/

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/44471-edo-period-cast-tsuba/

 

The adventure continues!

With respect,

Dan

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all,

 

So here is something of interest that I was advised by a friend to look at.  It is the “Shinsa Standards: (amended by May 19, 2015)" and can be downloaded from the below weblink-

 

https://nbthk-ab2.org/shinsa-standards/

 

The area under “Tosogu (Fittings) Hozon Tosogu” is of particular interest since it mentions cast fittings! The several numbered areas of that particular area of the article need to be read.  Now, I interpret what was stated as cast iron, cast copper, and cast bronze tosogu!

 

The adventure continues!

With respect,

Dan

[Iekatsu]

Hello Dan,

There is no mention of cast iron in the above standards, it is well established that there are cast bronze Tsuba that pre-date the Meiji period and that they pass for papers at all levels.

[Spartancrest]

Perhaps the Shinsa assessment needs a bit of an update and clarification? - It does not specifically say what castings or what they are cast in - ambiguous and a little misleading. [If you are spending big money on an assessment wouldn't you like to know that at least it will be assessed?]

It might well be that cast kinko tsuba are "well established" and pre-date the Meiji period - the question still remains can we pre-date cast iron to the Edo period. [Certainly we have ample evidence of them from the Meiji period .]

[ROKUJURO]

As far as I know, different copper alloys, including brass, were used to pre-cast TSUBA blanks for the manufacture of KINKO TSUBA, but bronze is not mentioned.

[jsv]

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Tony.

 

So, what exactly are you inferring by underlining “Works of iron” in the Shinsa Standards?  Are you equating “works of iron” with only hand forged tsuba?  If I am incorrect in what I think you stated I apologize, but I will go on.

 

Some posts in this thread explain how cast iron could be re-heated, softened and hand worked.  So, cast iron could be a “work of iron”.  Have you read the entire thread?

 

I have spent over 2 years on this thread and I am no longer interested in doing more research.  I know that I (and a few other members) have provided enough research, evidence, and proof to show that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period.

 

With respect,

Dan

[Iekatsu]

Jean,

 

Bronze is used in Kagamishi tsuba.

 

Dan,

 

You have not provided suffcient evidence to convince most people following this thread.

 

The hunt continues.

[Dan tsuba]

Hello Thomas!  

 

I quote a part of your post-

 

“Dan,

You have not provided suffcient evidence to convince most people following this thread.

The hunt continues.”

 

Well, for me, the hunt is over.  I am done with my research!

 

Also, it must have taken you a very long time to contact most people following this thread and find out if they think I (and a few others) have not provided sufficient evidence to convince them that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period.

 

Or was that statement just your opinion?

 

With respect,

Dan

[Spartancrest]

15 hours ago, Iekatsu said:

Bronze is used in Kagamishi tsuba.

As is Yamagane which is a different metal to Bronze.

 

A quote:

 

"I will defy anyone to positively classify a soft metal tsuba as being yamagane or copper of varying degrees of purity, any of the many varieties of bronze/brass, and an almost infinite variety of related alloys without solid analytical analysis. Speculating on metal composition based solely on it's present patina is simply guesswork.  I must admit, and I think I can reasonably claim some expertise in this area  , when I read such confidant commentary about metal composition I do sometimes feel like Alice in Wonderland  .

 

What I'd strongly argue for is a far more rigorous basis in terms of evidence when we make our assumptions."

 

Now who said that?

[Iekatsu]

Hello Dan,

My opinion of course, but there has been quite a bit of push back from various members over the life of this thread, I think that fundamentally it comes down to the quality of the supporting evidence and the fact that a rigorous research methodology has not been applied.

I am sorry to hear that you are done with research into this topic, I for one will keep an open mind and look forward to seeing if any new evidence/research surfaces.

[Iekatsu]

Hello Dale,

 

I study Kagamishi tsuba, I have an extensive collection and have had them tested using an XRF machine, all the examples I have tested are bronze in composition. Yamagane is not really a suitable material for casting and this is reflected in the extant examples.

 

[Spartancrest]

 

Other extant examples: would seem to dispute that Yamagane is not suitable for casting, perhaps a broader research is needed?

5 hours ago, Spartancrest said:

"What I'd strongly argue for is a far more rigorous basis in terms of evidence when we make our assumptions."

[ I would stress the above quote is not mine but from a long time member of this forum - who can "..reasonably claim some expertise in this area" ]

 

https://varshavskyco...ction/tsu-0399-2019/    =  School: Kagamishi,  Material: Yamagane, Technique: Carving, Cast, Kebori, Low relief carving, Sukashi

https://varshavskyco...collection/tsu-0362/  = School: Kagamishi,  Material: Yamagane, Technique: Cast

 

[Iekatsu]

Hello Dale,

 

Many people just make subjective assumptions based on the the look, feel and colour of the metal (refer to the quote you posted above), this is even true in well known publications and books by well meaning experts. Many of these assumptions are wrong because most people do not have access to equipment to test the material composition, once published it is taken as fact, I have done the tests and formed my own conclusions.

 

(Also only the second example posted is a Kagamishi, the other has been misidentified.)

[Spartancrest]

3 hours ago, Iekatsu said:

Many people just make subjective assumptions based on the the look, feel and colour of the metal (refer to the quote you posted above), this is even true in well known publications and books by well meaning experts.

Yes this is likely true - however you have presented no evidence at all. [even if 50% of what Vashavsky has said is wrong - that leaves 50% correct?] You have stated your findings limited to a set number of tests, but we are forced to just take your word. [you may well be correct but a statement is not evidence] Opinions by "experts" not backed up by evidence can only be classed as hearsay. 

The argument I am having is not about certain types of metal, it is the persistent number of replies to posts throughout the entire forum where opinions are given that are not backed up with facts we can check. You had the opportunity to check my references but we have not had the pleasure of yours - [I am very sure you can supply them so why not include it in the post?]

I hope it has come across this is not a personal attack it is a frustration aimed at a large number of members quick to give opinions but less inclined to show us how they have reached those opinions. [Is this not a fair request?]

 

PS. Thomas, nice to have a little argument with someone in the same country for a change.   

[Iekatsu]

Hello Dale,

With all due respect to Vashavsky, he collates information that has been published in various books, on websites and information given on items purchased, and he does a very good job of it, but a citable source it is not, and there is no information on how the material attribution was reached. I am happy to share a single example, but this is part of active research I am conducting and when I am I ready to release the full results I will. I am not here to convince you or anyone else of anything, I just have knowledge in the area and thought it was worth mentioning. Below is a classic Kagami-shi Tsuba, I actually have two in this style, likely from the same workshop and you can see a similar example published in the Sasano's Kagamishi Tsuba book.

The composition is:
Copper 83% 
Tin 12.88%
Iron 0.88% 
Silver 0.37%
The remaining being made of trace elements of various things.


 

[OceanoNox]

I am not familiar with XRF, I only use XRD at work (and am limited to about 20μm depth of analysis on a polished surface). Does anybody know the penetration depth with various XRF devices?

Kawami did try the method on iron tsuba, and his analysis basically yielded the composition of the patina only (indicated by the clear presence of copper, which appears to correspond to the patina recipes).

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

I was looking around the forum and found a thread from 2019.

 

It is interesting and talks about cast iron tsuba.  The title of the thread is "Tochibata cast tsuba".  The link to the thread is listed below-

 

https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/30579-tochibata-cast-tsuba/

 

I quote a part of the first post on that thread-

 

“School as Tochibata, a group of blacksmiths who made farm implements and seemed to have made tsuba as a sideline.”

 

Just some more interesting stuff!

 

With respect,

Dan

[Dan tsuba]

Oh well,

 

I just happened to notice that this thread went from 24K views to 24.4K views in about 7 days (more or less).

 

So, let’s look at this another way.

 

Why all of a sudden is there interest in this thread?  I mean this thread hasn’t garnered any interest in about 5 or 6 months!

 

So, who thinks they may have cast iron tsuba in their collection made in the Edo period to take the time to read this thread and learn about the possibility of Edo period cast iron tsuba?

 

You all know about my thoughts on the subject!

 

Those of you that think they may have cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period, pictures are always welcome to be evaluated by me and other (much more knowledgeable than I am !) members on this forum!

[Spartancrest]

At last a good use for CAST tsuba. I converted this cast guard into a door handle on my barn door. 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

 

An article I found written by-

 

Markus Sesko

Japanese Arms and Armor

Cast Sword Fittings

Posted on 2016/01/20 by Markus Sesko under Uncategorized    

 

Found at this website-

https://markussesko....cast-sword-fittings/

 

I quote part of the article referenced above-

 

“Back to the early Edo period. Now every sword and short sword that was worn when on duty had to be equipped with a proper tsuba, tsukamaki, fuchigashira, and menuki. (Again, I am not talking about special cases, koshigatana with unwrapped hilts, swords in private collections etc. I am referring to the majority of swords.) Now comes some numbers game. It is estimated that the samurai class made up about 10% of the Japanese population. In the early Edo period, Japan had a population of about 12,000,000 to 18,000,000 and about steady 30,000,000 from Genroku (1688-1704) to the end of the Edo period. So if we start with 12,000,000, about 2,500,000 swords (daishô, thus times two the 10%) have been worn at any given day in the early, and about 6,000,000 swords throughout the later Edo period. Well, tsuba and sword fittings were of course reused and handed down in the peaceful Edo period but still, there must had been a production line for the cheaper swords and therefore it is in my opinion only logical to accept that there were many more of such cast workshops like the one discovered in Nara. I also think that the majority of these relative cheap fittings just did not survive or was melted down for casting metal fittings. Thus we are hardly talking about them today.”

 

The Nara site discovery was referred to by me in my first post to this thread.

 

Although, Mr. Sesko doesn’t specifically mention anything about cast iron tsuba in his article. 

 

But it does not take a large stretch of the imagination to surmise that cast iron tsuba could have been made.  Especially by kettle makers in the Edo period (as previously mentioned somewhere in the 15 pages of this thread!).

 

Just some more food for thought!

[Rivkin]

Ok, writing in a "popular style" without any actual quotes because I am lazy, generally 10% though appearing in English language literature has been corrected downwards in the past 50 years. Its a typical number for Tozama daimyo (the greatest offenders would be Uesugi with like >30%, Satsuma >20%, Mori >15% - going purely by memory) due to land confiscation but the percentage drops significantly with daimyo like Maeda (special case) and all Tokugawa retainers like lesser Mitsudaira families. The overall was closer to 5% around Genroku (it was higher at the end of Muromachi, possibly towards 15%).

Out of those we subtract women and small children. Daisho is a weird thing in a sense it does appears in documents and early paintings, but then it quickly disappears from sources coming back around 1800s... So did samurai wear daisho in mid Edo is not clear to most likely negative. The samurai right per se was not wearing daisho but wearing the long sword. There are however later sources specifying daisho most likely for the reason that a "semi-samurai" like Goto family was usually given a personal right to wear a daito in court processions but were not given a right to wear it at ordinary times as a daisho would have been worn after 1800s.

 

How many swords did an ordinary samurai had? Its a very good question and general answer is that sub-100 koku samurai (i.e. 90% of the class) from a few families studied would have literally a few blades in a household - two-four waki, two-four daito. Generally the ratio of 1.5 daito per adult samurai appears plausible.

Upper ranks would either be "mini-Daimyo" which is hatamoto in case of Tokugawa or similar class for Tozama with 1500-5000 koku, but they would have a large samurai retinue of their own. The "working samurai" ceiling is closer to either 150-200 koku level or the maximum of 500 koku which would be the top executive for a major Daimyo family. They would however have subservient families to pay as well... Overall "collections" of hundreds of blades start at Daimyo level and everything at and above Rai Kunimitsu cutdown waki is priced outside working bushi... Which we also see in gifts since even such "lesser" blade per modern higher end collector would in fact be a typical level of a Shogun's gift to a hakamoto in charge of a major project.

 

Going back to numbers... Tokugawa parade in Kyoto had a roaster of more than 450,000 samurai participants which should be close to every single adult samurai who could be mustered. the total number was probably closer to 600,000. Funny enough procession required new gear but obviously we see no evidence of hundreds of thousands koshirae ordered in one year...

So we have a total of about 1,000,000 daito, and possibly lesser number of wakizashi (there is no setting requiring one to wear wakizashi and not say tanto so in case of need wakizashi was not needed at all)... which is however compensated by wealthier peasants having considerable supplies of yari and naginata and merchants/wealthier peasants having wakizashi as well.

 

So much wording and different method of calculation still arrives at the same number of about 2,500,000 swords... 

 

[Dan tsuba]

Thanks, Rivkin.

 

So, by your calculations the number of swords in the early Edo period was comparable to what Mr. Sesko stated.

 

And I quote Mr. Sesko again-

 

“about 2,500,000 swords (daishô, thus times two the 10%) have been worn at any given day in the early, and about 6,000,000 swords throughout the later Edo period.”

 

But my latest post is about  the possibility of cast iron tsuba (being made by kettle makers) being used on some of those millions of swords. 

 

So, what do you think about that possibility?

[Rivkin]

Sorry, no idea... I am not that familiar with cast iron tsuba. I would cast soft metal before doing iron in any case.

[Iekatsu]

11 hours ago, Dan tsuba said:

But it does not take a large stretch of the imagination to surmise that cast iron tsuba could have been made.  Especially by kettle makers in the Edo period (as previously mentioned somewhere in the 15 pages of this thread!).

Dan, the problem is that it is a logic leap, you are not applying a scientific method to your research, starting with a conclusion and trying to find evidence to support the theory has inherent bias. They were casting soft metal Tsuba, it has a long history and there is plenty of evidence to support this, including the site discovered in Nara. You are assuming that it would naturally lead to casting in iron, but there was not necessarily a need or demand to do it in iron, soft metal is perfectly functional for the task, it is much easier to cast and likely more cost effective. Until further evidence surfaces (and it may in the future) it is just a theory that is not yet supported by evidence, none of the evidence that has been provided thus far is sufficient.

[Dan tsuba]

"Tsuba - Cast iron - Lattice Window - Antique Tsuba for Samurai Sword - Japan - Edo Period (1600-1868)".  Listed by an art dealer in the Netherlands on 19 Dec 2020 as being from Japan (picture shown below).

 

Now I know all the negative replies (and dislike) that will come from this!  Some will probably state that the art dealer doesn’t know what he is talking about.  Others may state that the art dealer is not an expert.  And other stuff will probably be stated (and it has all been stated before in this thread).

 

But at least the art dealer was brazen enough to list it as “cast iron”.

 

Now how could the dealer be sure it was cast iron?

 

No one can be sure unless they subject the piece to noninvasive metallurgical testing.  Which was mentioned several times in this thread!

 

Not even the so-called experts, or anybody else can be sure.

 

No, my friends, I am not going to let this cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period thing go.

 

No matter how many downvotes I get!

 

How many possible cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period do you have in your collection?

 

Just some more interesting stuff! 

 

Onward!

[Dan tsuba]

Hello all!

Just a thought-

 

Probably most collectors find it difficult to acknowledge that cast iron tsuba could have been made in the Edo period.  Maybe they don't want it to appear that they made an error buying a tsuba that they thought was hand forged and someday may turn out to actually be cast iron (since they didn’t have a microscope handy to make their decision).  Also, some dealers perhaps think a tsuba may be cast iron, but they can’t determine that for sure.  Because even with a microscope to look for casting flaws, it may be impossible for a dealer to make a determination on a well-made cast iron tsuba and differentiate it from a hand forged tsuba.

 

So, everybody is doing the very best they can to decide on a piece they want to purchase (hand forged or possibly cast iron?) or to correctly list the tsuba that is being sold.  But, at times, that may just be a very difficult (or impossible) thing to do.

 

On page 8 of this thread, I showed a new cast iron bottle opener made in Japan (by a 15^th generation kettle maker) using the old ways (sand cast).  Picture is attached below.

 

It is a beautiful thing and doesn't take a large stretch of the imagination to see how easy it would have been for kettle makers in the Edo period to make tsuba.

 

I also have a nice old cast iron kettle that has some good details on it (and there are many other old kettles that have much more beautiful motifs on them).  A picture of my kettle is also shown below.

 

I believe it would be an easy thing for kettle makers in the Edo period to make cast iron tsuba.

 

One day when a cheap non-invasive metallurgical way to determine the difference between cast iron and hand forged iron is found, or if any old documents in Japan stating that kettle makers made cast iron tsuba are found (which may never happen since in the old days most everything was handed down by oral tradition-as stated before somewhere in this thread!)  Then, and only then, will people believe that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period.

 

But that won’t probably happen in my lifetime!

 

Like I stated at the beginning of this post, just a thought.

 

Let the downvotes continue!

 

Onward!

 

 

[Matsunoki]

Oh noooooooooo, the pain!!!!

[Kantaro]

Found a cast iron one:

 

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