Arsenal Mark on RJT sword Fittings

[Bruce Pennington]

18 hours ago, vajo said:

 

Should be ✰ stamped Bruce. Are they any star stamped blades from him?

Chris,

I updated the post to add the photo with the star.  Was in a hurry originally, and didn't notice I'd left it off.

[vajo]

Bruce you found something new. Cool. 

I think the smith could be added als RJT smith.

[Bruce Pennington]

Chris Bowen posted this star blade on Facebook.  I can't figure out how to post an address for it, but it's in the Military Swords of Imperial Japan Group.  Unique in a few ways.  It's a Masakuni, but using 眞国, dated Dec 1941.  So the forth earliest RJT blade I have on file.  It's in RS fittings, so the earliest dated RJT blade I have in RS fittings.  The three earlier blades are in T98 fittings.  Also, the saya is painted black, usually associated with later war design.  Let me know what you think:

 

I have only one other Masakuni blade on file, June '44, but the smith signed 正国.  Japaneseswordindex only shows one Masakuni, but they don't show a first name or prefecture, and it's not unusual to see unlisted RJT smiths show up.

[John C]

Interesting placement of the star stamp - under the habaki. Later, they are mostly just above the mei. Early and still feeling out where the best spot would be?

 

John C.

[Conway]

The nakago shots of the date are a little blurry. Looks like it might be 1942. Does the FB post confirm the date? 

[Bruce Pennington]

54 minutes ago, Conway S said:

The nakago shots of the date are a little blurry. Looks like it might be 1942. Does the FB post confirm the date? 

Oh HECK!  I see my error.  This is 2600 year 2 = 1942.  Dang.  My points still stands on the black saya.  Seems early for that.

 

Chris confirmed the name issue:

"Kato Masakuni worked in the Meguro district of Tokyo. He used the kanji 眞国 which has several readings. 眞 is an old form of 真 I believe and the popular pronunciation is Sane. However, in conversation with Kato Masakuni's nephews, I was informed that their uncle preferred the reading "masa". Often times the common reading and the actual reading preferred by the smith can only be determined by confirming with someone who knew the smith personally."

 

Re-checking JSI, they have "Sanekuni" on the RJT list.  Can't find either name in Sesko, but that isn't unusual.

[mecox]

There is a paper on Tokyo Masakuni and family in NMB Downloads..........

 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

10 hours ago, mecox said:

There is a paper on Tokyo Masakuni and family in NMB Downloads...

Thanks, Mal, I somehow missed that one.  I'll check it out.

 

Update: In your bio of Masakuni you say "Masakuni was a senior smith during the war and in Showa 19 (1944) he became head smith at the Nishimura Nihontō Tanren Jo (西村日本刀鍛錬所) in Tokyo as well as Rikugun Jumei Tōshō."  The wording makes it sound as if you officially became RJT in 1944, but the sword above was star-stamped in 1942.  I also believe the RJT list on Japaneseswordindex was from 1942, listing him as "Sanekuni."

 

So, maybe it was simply a case of lumping the two fact together in one sentence?

[Bruce Pennington]

Another late war, unlisted RJT smith - Izumo jū Tadatsuna saku - 出雲住忠綱作, May 1945, found on ebay.  Sesko has one, from Tottori, which is a very small prefecture right next to Shimane (Izumo), so might be the guy.

 

 

 

[vajo]

 Damn i dont read it correct. 

Tadatsuna.

Edited April 1 by vajo

[Bruce Pennington]

4 minutes ago, vajo said:

Izumo Ju Tadayoshi was a swordsmith in Shimane prefecture

Is it this guy (only one listed by Sesko)

"TADATSUNA (忠綱), Shōwa (昭和, 1926-1989), Tottori – “Hōki Ōhara Tadatsuna” (伯耆大原忠綱), “Tadatsuna” (忠綱), real name Ōhara Chūjirō (大原忠次郎), born March 20th 1902, he studied from about 1935 under Moriwaki Masataka (森脇正孝) (see picture right)"

[Bruce Pennington]

I think I've found the first Tokyo RJT blade with a kana + serial number.  It's a July 1943 Sadahiro,Sukehiro star stamped, number 卜2223:

 

@Kiipu @BANGBANGSAN  - That's not a katakana.  What is it, brothers?

[John C]

2 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

That's not a katakana

Bruce:

Please excuse this if I have posted it before. From Ohmura's website, he talks about a quote from Major Ota and swords with "star" and "numbers on the stem butt (nakago)" [emphasis added]. Maybe this is one of those.

 

"Major Oto, who supervised the production of military swords as the manager of the Nagoya Army Arsenal Sekibu Factory, described the blades made by swordsmiths in accordance with the official standards as "Army-style modern forging swords" in his memoirs. It is possible that this "formal modern forged sword" was the official name of the military.　The sword blade stems delivered to this armory are: (1) Those with only a "star" mark that has passed the Army Material Inspection (2) A "star" and a number stamp on the stem butt (3) A "star" and an inspection mark on the stem building (4) There are various types such as those with a "star" and a small "sekiin". Items made before the designation of a swordsmith or items sold directly without delivery to the armory due to special circumstances even during the period of swordsmithing will not be marked with these inspection seals, number stamps, etc. A sword that does not have the date of manufacture cut on the back of the stem is not a sword that has been once delivered to the armory, even if it is a standard sword of the swordsmith. In addition, "non-standard swords" that greatly deviated from the tolerance range of the dimensional standards indicated by the specifications and drawings, such as being important, deeply warped, or too heavy, were not delivered to the armory, but were sold directly to sword dealers and officers. Of course, these are not stamped with stars or numbers."

 

John C. 

Edited August 4 by John C

[BANGBANGSAN]

3 hours ago, Bruce Pennington said:

 

 

@Kiipu @BANGBANGSAN  - That's not a katakana.  What is it, brothers?

The katakana ト could be the first character for Tokyo. However, it was also the factory code for the 3rd Manufacturing Plant of the South Manchuria Army Arsenal.

 

[Bruce Pennington]

8 hours ago, BANGBANGSAN said:

The katakana ト could be the first character for Tokyo

Thanks Trystan!  I see I missed it on the Katakana chart, DOH!

I'd lean toward it representing Tokyo.  There are only a couple prefectures I have not found with katakana markings and Tokyo was one of them.  One blade is not proof, but it fits the pattern and Sukehiro was from there.  

 

[Bruce Pennington]

9 hours ago, John C said:

Bruce:

Please excuse this if I have posted it before. From Ohmura's website, he talks about a quote from Major Ota and swords with "star" and "numbers on the stem butt (nakago)" [emphasis added]. Maybe this is one of those.

 

"Major Oto, who supervised the production of military swords as the manager of the Nagoya Army Arsenal Sekibu Factory, described the blades made by swordsmiths in accordance with the official standards as "Army-style modern forging swords" in his memoirs. It is possible that this "formal modern forged sword" was the official name of the military.　The sword blade stems delivered to this armory are: (1) Those with only a "star" mark that has passed the Army Material Inspection (2) A "star" and a number stamp on the stem butt (3) A "star" and an inspection mark on the stem building (4) There are various types such as those with a "star" and a small "sekiin". Items made before the designation of a swordsmith or items sold directly without delivery to the armory due to special circumstances even during the period of swordsmithing will not be marked with these inspection seals, number stamps, etc. A sword that does not have the date of manufacture cut on the back of the stem is not a sword that has been once delivered to the armory, even if it is a standard sword of the swordsmith. In addition, "non-standard swords" that greatly deviated from the tolerance range of the dimensional standards indicated by the specifications and drawings, such as being important, deeply warped, or too heavy, were not delivered to the armory, but were sold directly to sword dealers and officers. Of course, these are not stamped with stars or numbers."

 

John C. 

 

John, thank you!  I'm not sure I've seen that, or if it's been so long I'd forgotten.  He makes it clear the stamped numbers are blades delivered to the armory - so not done by fittings shops.  And blades with the stamps were "sold directly without delivery to the armory."

 

Great stuff!

[Kiipu]

Bruce, I think you are correct, it is for Tōkyō.  Compare the serial number to the early Type 100 serials and see how it fits.

[Kiipu]

I think it is a continuation of the serial number range used by Tōkyō Arsenal for the early Type 100 Military Swords.  This is the highest Type 100 I have recorded and it is serial number 2128.

Akimitsu - Unusual Date Inscription

[Bruce Pennington]

29 minutes ago, Kiipu said:

This is the highest Type 100 I have recorded and it is serial number 2128.

 

I have a few higher:

1944, Mar	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	タ2374 Star; painted “6123”
1944, Mar	Niigata	Akihisa (RJT)	タ2197 no Star
1943	Niigata	Akimitsu (RJT)	タ1246
1943, Aug	Niigata	Akimitsu (RJT)	タ1261 Star “651” painted
1943, Jul	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	タ 1244 star
1943, Oct	Niigata	Sadakiyo (RJT)	タ1518 Star
1943	Niigata	Sadaroku (RJT)	タ 1361 star
1944, Feb	Niigata	Sadaroku (RJT)	タ2383 star
1944, Mar	Niigata	Munetoshi (RJT)	タ2353 star
ND	Okayama	Nagamitsu	イ143 on mune
ND	Okayama	Nagamitsu	イ0313 on mune
ND	Okayama	Nagamitsu	イ2511 on mune