Seki made 'Type Rinji'.

[george trotter]

I have a question for members who have an example of the   showato blade 'Type Rinji' mounted sword.

These have

steel scabbard painted light brown

no dust cover seppa over scabbard mouth

only one chuso button (not two)

usually have Seki, Nagoya (na) or Gifu (gi) stamp on tang

 

My question is about the year they started in production...has any member got one dated before 1943 (sho 18)? ...if so I'd like date details and stamp (I have a real nice toffee apple for whoever has the earliest date). (maybe Bruce already has the answer?)

 

This pic is of my Seki 'Type Rinji, but it is RJT by gendaito smith Kanehide so is not Showato type.

[Shamsy]

Hi George. Have you seen the thread regarding the Rinji swords on Warrelics? Someone definitely has compiled dates for these swords... I just can't remember where or who exactly. As you astutely observe, I'm sure Bruce will remember who and where, if it was not him.

[Bruce Pennington]

2 hours ago, george trotter said:

a real nice toffee apple

 

1 hour ago, Shamsy said:

Bruce will remember who and where,

I would do almost anything for a nice toffee apple!  But in spite of Steve's faith, I cannot recall or find the discussion either.  @cabowen mentioned that he's seen a '42, but he didn't post pictures in the thread I found.  I'm fairly sure someone posted a '41, but I can't find it.  The search function, in spite my checking "All of my search words", keeps giving me 317 pages that contain "type" not just "type 3" or "type 44".

 

There are a couple of NMB guys with "Type 3 collector" in their by-lines.  Hopefully someone will help out George.

[george trotter]

Thanks guys...let's hope a 'Type 3' guy will be able to help.

The reason I ask is because I can't recall seeing a Type Rinji (metal scabbard/one button/no dust seppa/showato blade) dated before 1943.

If no pre-1943 dated showato Seki Rinji turn up we can be pretty safe to say their production started in 1943.

Hope we hear something...

[vajo]

Damn that is a nice Showa RS. Mostly they are in very bad conditions but this a museum example. Congratulation to that sword George.

 

Oh!

Edit. I read it false! Its an RJT Sword. So i see much differences between Showa-to RS and a RJT mounted one. The Tsuka is wide above the Showa-to blades. 

[Bruce Pennington]

3 hours ago, george trotter said:

pretty safe to say their production started in 1943.

I hope we get some input from owners out there on this.  Nick's history of the RS model points out that it was officially ordered in 1938, but wasn't officially announced in the newspapers until 1941 with an expected output of 3,000/year.  But apparently that wasn't reached, and it seems it might have been 1943 before it really launched.

 

This is one of his threads on it, with the relevant paragraphs in posts #5-8

[george trotter]

Hi Bruce and all,

We know from 'in-hand' inspections that the higher quality Rinji mounts begin to appear on gendaito from c. 1941, definitely by early 1942 and (as I have seen) from 1942 RJT blades also begin to appear in them.

That 'alternative sword development' announcement of 1938 and the ''optional alternative sword to be commenced' announcement by Tojo on 17/5/1940 and the photos of it being published in Tokyo newspapers on 17/1/1941with the statement that 'annual production of 3000 was beginning' seems to indicate a government program. Maybe, while private or arsenal workshops began mounting  gendaito/RJT blades in Rinji mounts, the government scheme got delayed somehow....that is why it will be interesting to see what the earliest showato/steel scabbard Rinji date will be. I mean, the 'start of government? production of 3000/year (at Seki?) was announced in the papers on 17 Jan 1941....that is a long delay to 1943. What happened? or are we just short of knowledge on this topic?

Interesting...

[John C]

On 3/31/2021 at 8:34 PM, george trotter said:

 RJT by gendaito smith Kanehide

George:

Would you mind posting a picture (or directing me to the thread if already done) of the mei and date of your Kanehide for a project I am doing?

Thank you,

John C.

[george trotter]

Hi John,

Here are the mei and date of my Kanehide. Also, here down below  is the original pic from 2012 - I show you as some of the blue paint marking on mei side is now not easily visible.

Regards...

[John C]

That's fantastic, George Thank you verry much!

 

John C.

[Bruce Pennington]

John,

I don't know if you have all the Kanehide I have on file.  In addition to the ones on this thread, I have 6 with painted numbers.  Here's a list.  If you don't have some or all, let me know and I'll post them:

 

Kanehide (star stamped)

Aug '43 Black/Red paint

Oct '43 Black/Red paint

Aug '44 Green/Blue

Aug '44 Green/Blue

Mar '44 Red/Blue

May '44 Blue A90/90

 

@JohnC

[John C]

@Bruce Pennington

Wow, Bruce. That's great! I have 39 examples of his mei, which is what I am recording, but do not have 3 on your list (aug, 43; oct, 43, aug 44).

I would love to get your nakago pics of the 3 left on your list below. You have two listed as Aug 44. The one I have has the A80/A930 paint scheme. But it's the mei I am particularly interested in for this project.

 

Just to give you some background info - It is widely known that Kanehide changed his mei through out his career. But current literature available to me does not discuss a) how many times (i.e., what style kanji used) he changed, b) when those changes took place, and c) why those changes took place, if that can be determined through examination. It would be easier to just get in touch with his son Masanao and ask these questions but that is obviously not possible for me. Additionally, there is an almost 20 year gap in his oshigata record between 1954 and 1973. What version of his mei did he use during this time period? Are there any exhisting oshigata from this time period in Japanese sources? 

So far, I have been able to log 39 examples of his mei from ~1938 to 1988, except for that 20 year gap. There are some definite time frames for his kanji changes—basically 1938-1940, 1940-1945, and post war. Also, there seems to be some correlation between his kanji changes and certain events in his life. So I am comparing his kanji changes with his biographical history (mostly coming from Malcolm's research and one of his "resumes").

Anyway, it keeps me off the streets. And I greatly appreciate any info you have.

 

John C.