Was this smith allocated Tamahagane?

[Babu]

Hi I've been offered a sword by this smith that has no seki stamp. The sellers stated pre 1939.

Do you know the smith Nagata Suke Nori. Smith worked in Seki arsenal.

Did he get tamahagane? 

I'm trying to work out if it's gendaito in poor polish. 

[David Flynn]

If it doesn't have a stamp, reasonably safe to assume it''s a Gendaito.  As for using Tamahagane,   Unless it's a Star Stamp or Yasukuni blade, there really isn't anyway to be sure it was used.    Unless there is a record of which smiths outside the RJT or Yasukuni (Minotagawa) who used it,   one would never know.

Also, how would he know it's pre 1939?   There isn't a date on it.

Also, it appears to be a put together.

 

[Babu]

Hi David. I think he is saying they didn't stamp until 1939 so it could be a non traditional made but with no stamp. 

 

[Bruce Pennington]

The lack of stamp doesn't help answer your question, except to say that its lack makes it possible for it to be gendaito.  But like you say, there were plenty of blades made before and after stamping was required, that were showato.  Even knowing that a smith was known for making gendaito, is not guarantee, as most of those smiths were known to make showato as well, but it increases your odds that it might be gendaito.  Best course would be to push the seller for clear, close-ups of the hamon/blade.

 

The fittings could be piece-together, but I'd lean toward wartime re-fit.  I've seen quite a wide variation in the war re-fits.  I'm curious about the material of the saya cover.  Is it leather?  It looks like it could be worn and frayed fabric, which is rare, or even worn/frayed pressed paper, which is even more rare!

 

The tsuba is fascinating.  I would like to see a close-up of that too!

[David Flynn]

Field re- fits, didn't use antique handles (as far as I know).

[Bruce Pennington]

8 minutes ago, David Flynn said:

Field re- fits, didn't use antique handles (as far as I know).

I wasn't thinking of a field re-fit, actually.  I honestly don't know the process donated/purchased civil swords went through as they were militarized.  But the variety in fittings is so vast that I assume the multitude of shops working for the army were tasked to do it with whatever was at hand. 

 

I personally thought the tsuba and saya were WWII era.  The hole for the leather retention strap had been cut, but not punched out.  Did older civil fittings use leather saya covers with a retention strap on the fuchi?  The shape of the hole (oblong D shape) looks like something designed to allow a snap head to fit through.  But I'm not a tsuba guy, so I could be wrong.  Even if the tsuba is old, I have seen re-fits that kept all the original stuff on the blade and simply put it in a combat saya.

[PNSSHOGUN]

It looks of particularly dubious quality, along with the questionable mounts I would take a pass unless absurdly cheap.

[David Flynn]

I believe these type of put togethers, are post war.   If it was done in Japan, why not just another military Tsuka?

 

[Babu]

Sadly it's impossible to judge any quality with the poor images provided. 

It's worth a look if it's a gendaito. 

In the UK we get the option to return an item under distance sales regulations. 

We are not obligated to keep something that wasn't what we wanted. 

It's also for the record the senders responsibility to make any claim arising from loss or damage before it gets to the buyer, so its possible it's a better system than abroad where I'm told as soon as its put in the postbox the responsibility for the sender/seller ends. 

Even with private sales this would not work as a defence. 

I'm told its different for the rest of the world though. 

And here was me thinking the UK was an awful place to buy swords but I guess its all relevant. 

[IJASWORDS]

Adam, here is a similar outfit, same dark lacquer Saya, a fitted hanger and complete leather combat cover. BUT with military fittings. This has an unstamped  mumei blade. I think yours is a put-together, it should have military fittings. 

[Ooitame]

Without better pictures, although the kissaki looks interesting, I would pass.