kusunokimasahige Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 Hiya all, Mike has a blade for sale, well a few for absolutely ridicoulous prices, so i am resisting the urge to bid.... not too much to spend these days... DAMMIT! but what could these round things be on this blade? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?Vi ... otohosting very interested if it is inside the metalwork... an air bubble during forging? does it have a Japanese name? KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bungo Posted October 23, 2008 Report Share Posted October 23, 2008 " what could these round things be on this blade? " instead of the long rectangular ones we see, this look like round repair. milt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Umegane Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Umegane? Brian Edit: Pfft! Beaten by Jean :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Edit: Pfft! Beaten by Jean Because of my hind legs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Wilson Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Could it not be an itame blurl? (as a long shot) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Could it not be an itame blurl? (as a long shot) Henry, it does not seem to fit the environing hada - seems embedded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Hi, IMHO its looks like more spot of shingane than umegane. This blade seems have been often polished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted October 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 great info all!! Wouldnt a repair like that seriousely downgrade the outcome at shinsa? even though it might have been a contemporary repair? KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 It's a flaw. Not fatal, but a visible flaw, and will affect the value and/or outcome the same as any visible flaw. This goes for it whether it is shingane or umegane. Let's just say it isn't a good thing. Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ted Tenold Posted October 24, 2008 Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 I have yet to see any umegane done in round shape, and certainly nothing that large. The structure and color are clearly different. This points to shingane imho. If the blade could be examined in hand, one would look for similar structure and color in the shinogiji and also the mune to confirm the construction method and if those areas are exhibiting kawagane loss as well. Even this can be difficult to see though if the burnishing was done to push down signs of that too. Not accusing the seller of any malice. It's clearly odd and he describes it apparently with the same question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted October 24, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 24, 2008 Oh nothing bad about this seller, he is one of the best out there, especially with his prices and project blades which sometimes are jewels in disguise! merely learning about the technical side of things here... KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shan Posted October 27, 2008 Report Share Posted October 27, 2008 Hi All. I recently had a poor polish Yari that i wanted to see the hamon on. I was told by many that a shortcut "window" to the hamon was through Lemon juice. I brushed some lemeon juice onto the blade and waited for a while. The hamon did come up a little better but when i turned the blade over the underside (which is V shaped) had some lemon droplets on it that formed those round Marks.They are quite hard to remove as well. I think it is either lemon,Vinegar or an Acid or alkaline of some sort. Probably rubbish, but just sharing anyway. P.s the lemon trick was not that effective so don`t bother with it. regards shan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickn Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 shan you dont put lemon juice on blade and leave it but run the blade through a lemon ,up to the shinogi ,this way you dont get the staining it is very effective in showing up the hamon i believe the Japanese use plum vinegar. the blade in the photo was just grey half an hour with a lemon and the hamon stands out and the black is easily removed with a mild metal polish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickn Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 ITS VERY EFFECTIVE AND DOES NOT HARM A BLADE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickn Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 another blade i used a lemon on then ploshed with a mild metal polish Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Guys, With no offence intended and with all due respect, we don't advocate self polishing or any form of acid work on any original blades here on the forum. Yes, it can definitely harm a blade, and badly. Although lemon juice is mild, it can get into open grain and if not stabilised, I am sure the polishers here will tell you what it can do. There are others risks too. I know a lot use it, and nothing we say will stop it, but please understand that the official stance of the forum is to not advocate this kind of work or encourage/discuss it. Via pm is fine if you must, but not openly please. Otherwise we have to decide what is ok and what isn't. Is ferric chloride ok? Is steel wool fine? How about 1500 grit paper? You see where this goes, and better to just not go there at all on an art forum. Hope you understand. Regards, Brian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted October 28, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 Nick, sorry but you are wrong there.. it DOES harm a blade ! If u send it to a Togishi afterwards it might be repaired... or he might just refuse to... KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shan Posted October 28, 2008 Report Share Posted October 28, 2008 My Lemons shall be used for Drinks and pancakes from henceforth Brian. As i said i didn`t think it worked well. Good old 360 Grit wet and dry,Now theres a trick NOT REALLY!!! :lol: regards shan P>s The yari will be going to the polisher inthe new year its a big one for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickn Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 sorry i have used lemon juice on hundreds and i do mean hundreds of swords over the last 30 years and have never caused any harm to a blade or had a polisher refuse to polish a blade. lemon juice is a very mild acid that neutralises itself as it works on the metal , i am sure a chemist could explain better, it does not carry on working into the steel that is not how acid works but i always wash a blade afterwards . i have read that in Japan plum vinegar is used??? i would rather use a lemon than take wet and dry to a blade Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pcfarrar Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 sorry i have used lemon juice on hundreds and i do mean hundreds of swords over the last 30 years and have never caused any harm to a blade or had a polisher refuse to polish a blade. lemon juice is a very mild acid that neutralises itself as it works on the metal , i am sure a chemist could explain better, it does not carry on working into the steel that is not how acid works but i always wash a blade afterwards Lemon juice is a weak acid but it willl still damage the blade especially if it gets into open grain. Once its inside it can then eat into the blade from the inside out. The rusting process is greatly accelerated by the presence of even weak acids. If you do use lemon juice, you should clean the blade with sodium bicarbonate solution to neutralise the acid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickn Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 the proper use of a week acid ,like lemon juice, does not harm a blade its what the Japanese have used for centuries to see if a sword has a hamon .in my oppinion its safer then using wet and dry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted October 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 If this knit bitting is going on much longer id like this thread to be closed... The question was not about using lemon juice but about the wakizashi repair and any other sword repairs be it or not, contemporary. KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bungo Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 it's like Coke or Pepsi. Not going to change any mind here................... milt Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shan Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 Be that as it may ,People are talking and that has to be good. Sometimes a discussion digresses for a while and then gets back on course again,thats the nature of discussion and shouldn`t be condemed.Another comment can sometimes bring it back on topic again. It will all , in one way or another , help (or hinder) the original Poster and there original questions. The 360 grit Wet and dry was a joke by the way. To the original poster. Never mess with a blade that could be in any way shape or form genuine.It illicites an underisable chemical reaction on a forum and can cause Burning, itchy eyes,blurred vision and a chaffing around the crotch area. You have been warned P.s I love the item anyway and i say get it checked out by a professional ,Try Kenji Mishina and send him some images.He has a website www007.upp.so-net.ne.jp/m-kenji/ I have always found him very helpful and knowledgable.If the images are good he will advise. Regards Shan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted October 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 To the original poster. Never mess with a blade........ I think you mean Nick and not me... KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest nickn Posted October 29, 2008 Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 i never mess with a blade so what is a person to do when they buy an old blade rusty or in poor polish to find out if it has a hamon or boshi? its not practical to send all your swords to a polisher for an oppinion what with the time and expense. i have bought 3 blades this week one i will keep the other two i will sell on it would not be logical (£50 to open up a window 2/3 month wait) to post them to a uk polisher and madness ,with the present uk rules , to send them to Japan for an oppinion when i believe i have the experience to judge whether a sword can be restored or is worth restoration even if that means using lemon juice just as the Japanese have been using mild acid ,plum vinegar, for hundreds if not thousands of years to make the hamon stand out without any problems. obviously i wash the blade after i have used a lemon on it and i will state again in 30 years of buying and selling swords i have never every caused any harm using lemons i know of one uk dealer who uses nitric acid which is quicker then citric acid but i would never use it. also in the uk there are only two polishers i would trust with a sword but then only a lower end one shan do you think your yari is worth having polished? what would it cost £4-500 to have this done properly even JB would charge £150 and he would use chemicals! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kusunokimasahige Posted October 29, 2008 Author Report Share Posted October 29, 2008 ANO NE BAKA RRROO! split this topic please! open a new topic about polishing in stead of making my thread look foul! KM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guido Posted October 30, 2008 Report Share Posted October 30, 2008 With all three mods on their way to Japan, this is just what we need: childish bickering over fruit juices and who "owns" threads. Thread locked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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