Saotome

[kissakai]

Hi

I bought this tsuba at the weekend as it had a few features that are new to me

I was going to ask about the four flower(?) sukashi but I see something simlar that may be already discussed in the current post ‘Fleur-de-lis’

I think this might be the Hosoge flower. Hosoge meaning noble or precious flower, a stylised (not real) flower based on the lotus / Chinese peonies and introduced as a Buddhist motif in Japan around the 8th century AD.

 

Other features are the sukashi graduated kiku design, the kogai ana form, neither of these I’ve seen before. Even the kosuka ana is strange

 

Finally, the school. I’ve ruled out Akasaka add had a stab at Saotome and you can’t rule out Shoami!

 

The size is 83 x 79 x 5.3mm

 

 

 

Grev

[Bugyotsuji]

Hi Grev, I think those may be Kaji or mulberry leaves. 梶　家紋

 

https://www.google.com/search?q=%E6%A2%B6%E5%AE%B6%E7%B4%8B&tbm=isch&ved=2ahUKEwjDndDo3tjnAhXjhMYKHfnbDK4Q2-cCegQIABAA&oq=%E6%A2%B6%E5%AE%B6%E7%B4%8B&gs_l=img.3..0i7i30l7.243072.250365..251462...0.0..0.158.597.0j4......0....1..gws-wiz-img.......0i8i7i30j0i7i4i30j0j0i131.lxGyvxl34gk&ei=nptKXsPWMeOJmgb5t7PwCg&bih=625&biw=1366

[kissakai]

Looking good - thanks

[rkg]

Grev,

 

First off, it sure looks more like you are missing sukashi walls rather than that being a deliberate design element (note the notches in the seppa area and the outer sidewalls where they are missing).

 

I'm not sure who made it - that  technique of inserting sidewalls is was kind of a specialty of whoever made those kiku-sukashi tsuba we call Saotome, but the thin sidewalls in that inner kiku sure looks like some kind of kyoto work, so... maybe it was done by somebody who was mixing various designs up - like Edo Owari?

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

 

EDIT:  apologies for the unusually terse observation - I seem to have caught a cold and am not a happy camper

I was going to add that it looks like the removal looks deliberate, so having something missing isn't as bad as it sounds/the end result is pleasing - and not actually unheard of - I have pieces where it appears that inlay has been deliberately removed, etc - like on this tsuba:


 

[kissakai]

Thanks Richard

[Ganko]

I believe they are chrysanthemum leaves to go with the kiku in the center.

[kissakai]

Of course it Tom. How did I miss that

Richard the side walls of the kozuka show differences but the kogai wall all looks the same

The only good thing about a cold is copious amounts of whisky

[ROKUJURO]

.....I'm not sure who made it - that  technique of inserting sidewalls is was kind of a specialty of whoever made those kiku-sukashi tsuba we call Saotome, but the thin sidewalls in that inner kiku sure look like some kind of kyoto work, so... maybe it was done by somebody who was mixing various designs up - like Edo Owari?.....

Perhaps the ITO family in BUSHU province? 

[Bugyotsuji]

Richard, innocent incoming warning! (Hoping you are feeling a little better.)

 

Why do we call kiku sukashi 'saotome'. And does that fall within Katchushi?

[rkg]

 Piers,

 

Thanks for your concer.  I mostly seem to have recovered (which is good 'cause Its tax time in the states (it takes forever to accumulate the material to send to the accountants) + I a bunch o' tsuba inbound or here to shoot :-) )

 

Your query about saotome work is actually a really good question.  If you look at the population of tsuba that have been labeled Saotome, there are basically three groups:  The first is pretty much specifically these round, mokko, etc shaped kiku themed pieces where they are assembled (I've posted about this before - they are all pretty much made with with a number of the sukashi sidewalls forming the kiku being inserted (like the tsuba above) (as an aside, I think the NB tends to bin the odd piece where all the sukashi are all carved as katchushi - but I don't know if that is the exact difference they look at).  The second group are the "lumpies" - those cool pieces with the worked surfaces, usually with some kind of uchikaeshi mimi and often some simple sukashi.  And the third is this group of pieces that are usually visually pretty sophisticated.

 

The confusing thing is that the ones with the kiku sukashi pieces are really different from the other two groups - different workmanship, different metal construction (the lumpies are usually made from folded iron plates, etc), etc.  Haynes asserts that due to construction differences, design sophistication, and "feeling" (the lumpies are generally pretty tea-tasty), the latter two groups were more likely done by some early Shouami group (they're often said to have been made in the Yamashiro area, so I guess that works). 

 

 

But that's not the way they're papered, so YMMV.

 

Best,

rkg

(Richard George)

[Bugyotsuji]

Thank you for the detailed reply, Richard. I have not seen your previous postings on this subject. There is so much to learn in each field, I get immediately lost when straying over another boundary fence, where each complex field is maddeningly fascinating, and where there are both large gaps in the knowledge and yet some nuggets of handed-down folklore. 

[Curran]

Yep. The topic of Saotome is a difficult one.

As RKG said, I've heard a lot of arguments for ko-katchushi too.

 

I've much to learn too, and don't have a firm opinion.

Here is another large TH example. I've been told there are no Juyo tsuba with the Saotome attribution, not even among the signed early ones.