Better jump on this Masamune

[drbvac]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-SWORD-MASA ... dZViewItem

[John A Stuart]

I wonder if I have enough loonies in my change jar, just a moment I'll check. Darn it. Nice looking sword though whatever. John

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Already seen 2 or 3 times. It seems nihontô aficionados are not so naive :D .

[Walter]

Just wonder if a REAL Masamune blade would be ever authorized for shipping out of Japan?

[Brian]

See the post on the old forum at http://www.militaria.co.za/nihontomessa ... c&start=15

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Seems to me that this is a perfectly honest offering. The sword is exactly as described. The origami is apparently genuine and the only decision you have to make is; do you believe the accuracy of the appraisal. As for the sword itself, I wouldn't mind giving it a home at all. Fine katana-kake too. The whole package would make a perfect birthday present..hint, hint

 

I'd laugh my head off if someone were to buy it and it subsequently was authenticated .

 

It's when seeing these sort of discussions that I'm reminded of something Basil Robinson said, "the easiest way to appear to be "one who knows", is to condemn everything as a fake". This can be a strategy that can backfire badly

 

just stirring the primeval waters, like Izanagi

 

regards, Ford

[Brian]

Ford,

 

That's all true. But the seller (who IS in Japan) would have to be pretty...umm....incompetent/negligent... if he hadn't run it past every single possible person there before selling it on eBay, unless he himself was 100% sure it was dodgy :lol: :D

I have a feeling if there is any doubt at all whether it is "mis-attributed"...there are a few other avenues to sell it in Japan?

 

Nice blade though either way. Looks like it would have had to be a pretty top piece to even get the attribution, and the polish looks very nice indeed. I would love to know what it would kantei to if mumei.

 

Brian

[drbvac]

I just read through the previous posts on "masamune" offerings. The seller is legit. the sword is as he states, the documents are as well, but considering the price - everyone and their dog knows it is gimei.

 

So could you buy this obviously beautiful "copy" by someone who knew what they were doing and keep it as thus? I know of art works that are "so and so" after, Renoir or someone and are quiet valuable in their own right. They don't have what are basically forged signatures but what if the guy who made this was called masamune - there is a country and western singer whose name is the same as mine and he signs it all the time!

 

Knowing that it is not THE masamune - whats it worth in its own right!

[Brian]

That is a good question, but one I wouldn't be able to answer. The trouble is that when spending large amounts of money, people would want papers to say who did make it, and those couldn't be had without removing the kinpunmei (which would remove the curiosity and attraction of the papers that it does come with) and submitting it to shinsa.

So bit of a catch 22. The papers it does have are very interesting historically. But the real name of the smith is important to the value, and can't be had without removing the gimei. :?

I would love to know the gist of what the Honami attribution says, and whether this was a case of a favor being done for someone in ancient times, or maybe a gift that had to be above average, or one of the many other ways in which false attributions came to exist back then.

Seems to me it wasn't even frowned upon too much back then, as it was fairly customary when giving gifts or doing favors?

All very confusing and intriguing

 

Brian

 

Edit to add: Without an oshigata of the nakago, can we say for certain that the papers belong with this sword? Not suggecting anything, just that the kissaki oshigata shown doesn't match the sword completely from the pics I can see. Not sure, just a thought though.

[Jean]

My fantasm : buy it, put it through shinsa and have it kanteied to Kiyomaro

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Honami papers seem dated from showa 9

[John A Stuart]

Well that would fit wouldn't it? I know he was around in the Showa era but not sure when he died. John

[Brian]

Shows how much I know about the Honami line, doesn't it?

I had assumed this was an earlier generation, and therefore subject to some of the funny dealings that happened back then. But a Showa date would exclude that. Hmmm..so the puzzle remains. Any comments about whether the papers match the work itself?

 

Brian

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

My fantasm : buy it, put it through shinsa and have it kanteied to Kiyomaro

 

Jean, believe it or not you make me woder about an Honami Mitsuyoshi that seems to me to remember adopted

a Yasukuni smith named Yoshiaki Sugano Kosuke that seems to me to remember was fashinated by copies that seems to

me to remember it's bedtime because I'm tired... :lol:

[Jacques]

HI

 

My fantasm : buy it, put it through shinsa and have it kanteied to Kiyomaro :rofl:

 

Jean, believe it or not you make me woder about an Honami Mitsuyoshi that seems to me to remember adopted

a Yasukuni smith named Yoshiaki Sugano Kosuke that seems to me to remember was fashinated by copies that seems to

me to remember it's bedtime because I'm tired... :lol:

 

From sword to.......... phono cartridge.

 

Auction for Koetsu Phono cartridge

 

This early model of Koetsu cartridge is provided for auction

by Akihabara shop.

Koetsu is very popular brand among the audiophile, however,

there are only little information available for Koetsu.

As we checked through Website, we got following information

about Koetsu:

 

The name of "Koetsu" might remind you of Honami Koetsu(1558-1637).

Honami family practiced the trade of polishing, sharpening, and

assesing swaords for generation. When we serched by the word

"Honami", we only got the information about sword.

The late Yoshiaki Sugano, who created Koetsu cartridge ,

used to be Sword Craftsman same as Honami Koetsu.

Koetsu was not allowed to produce sword after the war.

Yoshiaki Sugano applied swordmaking techniques to phono

cartridge.

He used a special kind of traditional Japanese steel called

Tamahagane as core coil and bound the coil by himself , then

put them into lapis or rosewood body.

Mark Levinson asked Yoshiaki Sugano to create phono cartridge.

Early model cartridge of Mark Levinson was OEM production by

Yoshiaki Sugano. Afterwards Koetsu brand became very famous

in Europe, but only 60 cartridges could be produced per year

because all of them were handcrafted.

As Koetsu cartridge were intermittently exported, there

was a rumor among European audiophile that Yoshiaki might

die. Therefore, Audiophile magazine,"The abusolute sound"

(Vol.7 Number 26 issued June ,1982) carried the article that

Mr. Sugano had entered the hospital becasue of illness but

he got well and devoted to produce new cartridge.

 

We would like to introduce interesting his life to become

creator of phono cartridge.

Yoshiaki Sugano was born in 1907. He liked to draw picture

in childhood and his dream was to become an artist.

However, his parents wanted him to be a public servant or

an office worker. Yoshiaki entered Oil painting course of

Art school secretly and went to school for six months,but

it was found by his parents and he quitted his school.

Then, he entered Meiji University and he started boxing.

Finally, he became Japanese Champion of the bantamweight

class and he coached boxing team of Chuo University as

part time job. He was going to attend Belin Olimpic but

he was canceled the representative member due to violation

of the Amateur Sports act.

It caused him a proffessional fighter and he fighted at

various places in Asia. It is said that he was always

positive and never lost a fight.

Far East Branch's manager of automaker Ford compay watched

his match and he headhunted Yoshiaki to Ford because he

discovered his talent for salesman.

Being deteriotated relationship between Japan and United

States, Ford withdrew from the Japan Market. Then, Yoshiaki

moved to Toyota and became top salesman to sell 45 cars per

month. In those days, he dropped the forge of sword in

Yasukuni Shrine and he often visited swordsmith Honami Mitsuyoshi

in spare moments from his work. He was fasinated with

sword and started to imitate forging sword.

When the pacific war started, many salesman quitted their

job due to militerly service. However, Yoshiaki continued to

forge sword as the swordsmith appointed by the amy.

At that time he was adopted by Mitsuyoshi and he succeeded to

the name of Kosuke.

He retired from Toyota at the age of 60. Koetsu brand

was created by Yoshiaki Sugano who dedicated the rest of his

life to design and manufacture phono cartridge.

 

Production of Koetsu cartridge is taken over by his son,

Fumihiko Sugano and he uses 8N wires or new material for

cartridge.

This item was early model handled by Yoshiaki.

We are waiting for bids from Koetsu enthusiasts.

 

http://www.hifido.co.jp/merumaga/030509 ... 509be.html

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Yes, do you think it's a fake by him ?

 

Maybe Rich can help out with his knowledge about modern smiths ? :D

[DSweet]

It is interesting how clean the Ura side of the nakago is when compared to the omote around the mei. Seems to me like something has been changed/done around the mei.

 

All i know is that the ji-hada is beautiful and the hamon has loads of activity. I would love to have it, but i don't have $$ like that

 

-Donovan

[Guest reinhard]

1) The Hon'ami appraisers drifted into problems during late Edo-period until WWII, when every family of rank needed a "Masamune" to proove their status and at the same time the Hon'ami had lost a good deal of their incomes. Usually they would pick the nearest thing to a "Masamune" and attribute it to this great master. There was a famous example in the former Compton collection: a Tanto attributed to Masamune by Hon'ami Choshiki, beautifully mounted by Yamao Tomonobu with Goto menuki, commissioned by the Maeda family in 1874 for a special occasion. Dr.Homma attributed this sword to O-Sa later.

Another well-known example: The katana in the former collection of Field-Marshall Sir Francis Festing; also with an attribution to Masamune, turned out to be wrong. Nevertheless this sword is probably by Dewa-Daijo KUNIMICHI and is one of his masterpieces.

2) Don't expect to find a yet undiscovered Masamune in the web. His swords have been esteemed so highly and were sought after so eagerly during the last 600 years: The chance to find something like this is 0%. A seller in Japan, who has the slightest chance of possessing a genuine "Masamune" would never sell it for 30K on e-bay but have it papered and sell it for a lot more money, and I mean a lot.

3) The sword offered here has Keicho-Shinto sugata and seems to be made in the style of Soshu-masters. That's all you can say by the pics. The Kinzogan-mei looks horrible and the polish is extremely flashy.

 

reinhard

[John A Stuart]

Hi All, This sword can give us a good chance to excercise our minds and appraise this sword ourselves. The pics are pretty good. So, ignore the kinpunmei and Honami origami. There are very distinctive features that should help. Sugata, jitetsu, hatariki, hamon etc. A chance for some good natured banter. John

[Carlo Giuseppe Tacchini]

Hi John.

 

No more smileis here as seems they doesn't work for everybody.

I can't say if the Origami is legit and if it belongs to the blade. Let assume it is...

Instead, I would try to put the sword and the Origami into the historical period it

has been attributed to, where worship of the sword as soul of Japan was rised

for political reasons.

Nationalism would have made this blade in an high enough level that whould have been

unveiled only later and with visible evidences, as Rheinard point out, but if from a top level swordsmith different from Masamune it would have been much more savvy and economically convenient to simply tell the true. Seems it's still in Japan and it's still for sale after quiet sometime, at not a superlative (still high) price. Maybe this was a bad choice by Honami (no more good candidates for a fake Masamune available in such a later time ?), or even messed up a little. Needs somebody in Japan that has a direct knowledge of the market and possibly knows what's beyond the scenes.

[drbvac]

Your english as a lot better than my Italian and as John said, who do you think may have made this blade.

 

There is no doubt that it is NOT Masamune in spite of the Mei and the Origami, so if you forget about that but remember when the attribution was written -- who could have done this? That's really what I wondered from the start because all things considered it is pretty nice piece!

[Jean]

IMHO, IMHO, IMHO, IMHO (very very very very humble)

 

The shinogi ji seems masame.

 

Were it not for the nagasa, the blade being O suriage (???) I would have gone for Keisho.

 

Perhaps shinshinto utsushi

[Jacques]

Hi,

 

Perhaps shinshinto utsushi

 

Think also it's shinshinto.

 

To my eyes, it's not a so great blade, jigane seems uneven and the nioiguchi seems hajimi in some places.

[Guest reinhard]

A little exercise to sharpen your eyes: The sword in question (above) and a close-up of the best Masamune katana in existence (below). How do they differ?

 

reinhard

[Jean]

Thanks a lot Reinhard, I had never seen a close picture of a Masamune blade. The picture speaks for itself.

[Brian]

Yep, there are very clear differences in the workmanship, hada, hataraki and quality of course. But I don't think anyone is suggesting this is a true Masamune at all. Or even a very top grade Juyo smith. Just some light banter and joking about what it might be. It certainly doesn't look like junk to me. Not something I would pay that money for though. We can still use it as a fun exercise to theorise where it came from, what the story is, and who might have made it.

I think we all know it isn't a national treasure. Doesn't look like a mass produced junker either though...someone cared for it and spent money on it. Mid level? Low level with lots of make-up?

 

Brian