JIRO-ZAEMON-JO-KATSUMITSU?

[Peter M]

Hello all,

I am looking to encroach on the good natured and immensely informed people of this forum to make comments on the following Wakizashi I have agreed to purchase from an ebay seller.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/ws/eBayISAPI.dll ... 0206961020

 

The seller lists it as;

“It is minced with "BISHU-OSAFUNE-KATSUMITSU". This sword is a work of the Muromachi period (1392-1491) of Japan. I think that this is work of "JIRO-ZAEMON-JO-KATSUMITSUâ€

 

I did a search for the JIROZAEMON KATSUMITSU and found the following information from

http://www.sho-shin.com/sue2.htm

 

Any and all comments are welcomed and greatly appreciated thanks

Peter M

[Ichi]

I'm at work and can't access to my books. According to the attached registration, this sword was registered on Dec 17, 2007 and issued by Okinawan Prefecture. It means that this sword was found recently. The length is 54.3 cm and 1.5 sori. "Museum Class" ? I doubt it.

[Jean]

Peter,

 

Few chances to have a museum class sword with mei beginning by "Bishu Osafune ....".

 

Should have it been a museum class sword, Katsumitsu should have at least chiselled the nengo, put is personal name "Jiro..."

 

The mei (signature) should have been something like :

 

"Bizen koku Ju osafune Jirozaemon no Jo Katsumitsu (saku)" and the date "nengo" chiselled on the other side of the Tang (nakago)

 

But that a general rule, there always exceptions (but scarce)

[Peter M]

Hello,

Thanks for the replies. After my quick search and with your inputs it would indeed be a bit of a stretch to label the sword smith as JIRO-ZAEMON.

 

I would like to ask a few questions

 

1. can the mei be translated? If so what is the translation?

2. Given that the OSAFUNE school was a prolific sword producing area, practically in Wakizashi during this mid to late Muromarchi period, would it be too much to at least ascribe the piece to the dates that are listed in the auction?

3. Are there any doubts concerning authenticity? The papers that come with it are, to my limited understanding, just registration papers, however these papers are only issued to Nihonto?

 

Erol thanks for your reply,

Any chance you could dig up any information you might have? I know it is a huge ask!!! :D :D :D

 

Jean thanks for your reply. Can I ask for further clarification of your statement;

 

“Few chances to have a museum class sword with mei beginning by "Bishu Osafune ....".

do you mean that as the area was prolific the production numbers alone would decrease the value?

 

 

 

I will probably have a few more questions as I read through replies so please bear with me.

[Jean]

Hi Peter,

 

Blades with mei (signature) beginning by "Bishu Osafune ...." are generally considered like being mass product swords during this period (Warring states) cf. following link.

 

http://www.wsu.edu:8080/~dee/TOKJAPAN/WARRING.HTM

 

Ten thousands of blades were forged during this period - Bizen (Bishu) being the most prolific for mass product swords, followed by Mino (Noshu).

 

However, even if the mei begins with "Bishu Osafune ..." :

If there is a nengo (date) on the tang (nakago) : it is better

If there is an original hi : it is better ....

 

Now to date this sword is almost impossible, it is a typical uchigatana made to be wielded with a single hand, I shall say probably late 15th/beginning 16th century. Starting Tenbun nagasa (cutting edge) was longer. It is compatible with Eisho era (1504)

 

The mei reads "Bishu Osafune Katsumitsu" : Katsumitsu (swordsmith)of Osafune (Village) of Bizen (Province)

 

Suguta (shape) looks like Bizen sue koto and nobody (right in his mind) is going to chisel Bishu Osafune on a sword (no added value ...).

[pcfarrar]

Looks like the sword was taken to WW2.

 

It's lost its leather combat cover, I guess the solider hid the sword after the end of the war.

 

I think it's quite a good buy for $600. Looks like it will take a polish.

 

Suguta (shape) looks like Bizen sue koto and nobody (right in his mind) is going to chisel Bishu Osafune on a sword (no added value ...).

 

I have a friend who had a koto wakizashi signed Bishu Osafune ... suriage. He tried to get it papered and it came back gimei. I've also seen a fair few shin-shinto Bishu Osafune gimei. Bishu Osafune mass produced blades were very popular because of their excellent cutting ability. There's a write up about it the JSS/US sue koto book. I think this made them a target for gimei.

[Jean]

Thanks Pete,

 

I did not know that Shinsa could be so good as to determine from "Bishu Osafune" without the swordsmith name that the blade is gimei.

 

Sue koto Gimei Bizen blades I have come across had "Bizen koku Ju ..." mei, or at least a nengo together with Bishu Osafune. If mass bundled swords were in fashion for Bizen cutting ability, I am not sure it is the case nowadays.

 

I was assuming the blade is koto so I have ruled out shinshinto (nakago, hada, suguta, nagasa... are quite different).

 

The mei seems to be quite old (from the same period as the sword), but only shinsa can confirm it or not .

 

Which leads me to think that even if it is Bizen, at 95%, it can be a Kazu uchi mono.

 

I say "it can be" because of the lack of polish. It could be after a polish a real gem.

 

All in all, price+polish+shinsa = 2,5 k$ (more or less) - before doing anything I should have a window opened by a polisher.

 

The Nakago patina has suffered to ....

 

But, if the sword takes the polish as it is katana so why not...

[pcfarrar]

Sue koto Gimei Bizen blades I have come across had "Bizen koku Ju ..." mei, or at least a nengo together with Bishu Osafune. If mass bundled swords were in fashion for Bizen cutting ability, I am not sure it is the case nowadays.

 

I can't remember exactly as I'm away from my books but its something about the edge going soft. Giving them the name "sweet" cutters.

[Peter M]

Hello all,

First I would like to extend my thanks to the members off this forum for the above well thought out and informative posts. As I hate to read through posts and finally get to the end only to realise that the story has been left “hanging†so to speak I will post an update.

 

I received the Wakizashi from the eBay seller kofudo_jp on Friday of last week and finally had the chance to have a look a Nihonto in person, a truly inspiring event shall we say. It arrived at my place of employment just before I was to give a lesson on Japanese military expansionism prior to WWII, so I had the chance to show it to a class of really amazed young students. Some students in my class are of Japanese ancestry and I was lucky enough to get an interpretation of the registration documents that came with the piece. I guess I can now claim it on tax!!!

 

 

I have contacted a Nihonto restorer that is semi local to show the blade to sometime in early march to seek a further opinion on the restoration side of the project.

 

This brings me to my first question.

 

I have read through the following post made here on the topic of separating pieces of Japanese swords for individual sale with the pros and cons

 

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1681&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=preservation&start=15

 

With this post in mind…would it be justifiable to, and I can’t say restore in an archeological sense of the word, to purchase the remaining fittings (from the same approximate era) to bring the sword back to a semi state of originality, or just have the restorer make the new fittings direct. From the prices that the restorer lists for his services I believe the overall price would be roughly the same so the economic argument seems to me to be moot (???).

 

Second question

As visible in the pictures from the first posts link the blade has patches of oxidization in parts (perhaps being generous here). Some parts with no rust show the hamon quite well, and you are all going to hate this next sentence. The hamon is “wavy†which is an esthetic bonus for me :D . Anyway question is given the time frame to polish what is the best method of preservation of the blade until the polish can be done. The only thing on hand at the moment is rifle oil I am saddened to say, however I will be getting some medical mineral oil and some isopropyl as another forum has advised for maintenance after the polish has been completed.

 

Any and all input is gratefully accepted

 

Many thanks

Peter McVeigh

[Peter M]

Oh yes one more question please

 

I understand that the blade i have purchased is Kazu uchi mono. Is the classification of this blade solely based on the mei or are there any other "give always"? especially in terms of construction. From my uneducated eye the blade itself, were the oxidation is not present, does not show any "grain" hada (?) and appears like a mono steel blade.

 

Question

Is the category of Kazu uchi mono ascribed soley on the mei or are there “manufacturing†tell tales as well. And if so what would these be?

 

Thanks

Again

Peter McVeigh

[Jean]

Peter,

 

As long as you have not brought your sword to a polisher, nobody can say if the blade is kazu uchi mono or not, there is always a chance that it is a fair blade.

 

On the French Forum managed by Kitsune there is a post it on Kazu uchi mono:

 

http://token.alldiscussion.net/koto-f6/ ... n-t490.htm

 

You can google it for translation

[Peter M]

Thanks Jean,

 

Hope you don't mind, if so please let me know, I have used babel to translate from French to English and have posted the discussion here

 

Following an epistolary discussion with Jean, we propose the following text to you, of which the greatest part is of its hand. I thank it for his enlightened participation. In connection with the kazu mono uchi??? They are the productions in great quantity realized during the middle of the period Muromachi (1467-1554), mainly in Bizen but also in other regions. Workshops were founded under the responsibility for a Master blacksmith and employees worked according to the system of Taylorization, before the age of these techniques of production. A great quantity of sabres were thus produced to meet the urgent need out of weapons but also for export to China during this period when Japan entered the era of the civil wars (? Sengoku jidai). The blacksmiths of Osafune in the province of Bizen were the principal producers of kazu mono uchi. The term "Taba gatana" was also employed in a document compiled at the end of the Sengoku period, to qualify these weapons. This term has the same direction that kazu mono uchi, but is not used any more nowadays. The province of Yamato and the town of Seki in Mino also engaged in mass productions. These blades have a quality lower than that of the individually produced?uvres, even if they show characteristics in reference to work of this time in these provinces. It should not be forgotten that in this same excellent space of time?uvres was manufactured, the majority on order (chumon uchi????) or often bearing the personal name of the blacksmith (zoku mei??? ). This period of war is one period transitional which will see disappearing the gokaden in their fundamental characteristics and supremacy from the Mino school which in its diaspora at the end Muromachi/Momoyama will give rise to the Shinto time. With the 16th century, the Japanese blacksmiths mix the traditions, curiously one sees KB denies deki in Bizen with hada which from time to time are in itame, itame nagareru, to see from time to time of Masame. In Soshû, one sees disappearing famous denies it and the appearance of the nioi. Denies also appears in the tradition Mino, return to the source.... The Mino school is probably at that time the precurseur/creator of Taylorism. One does not speak more than one blacksmith, but of a forging mill where blacksmiths are who see themselves allotting each precise task. It is of the Henri Ford before the letter and this way of proceeding brought this judgement on these blades (I interpret a little): in fact blades without genius but reliable do not break, do not twist and cross. The kazu mono uchi are indissociable of Bizen and Mino. For Mino, it is necessary to judge blades in hand, there is of all and not distinctive signature being able to give an indication on the quality of manufacture, like Sukesada, Tadamitsu, Harumitsu in Bizen, there are lines of blacksmith in Mino, Kanemoto, Kanesada, Kanefusa, Ujifusa. The blacksmiths are co-opted by their pars, they return in a school and adopt the name of the founder. Bizen is famous for the signatures such as those: Precision: Kanji? "koku" (note is often read: "kuni" is the named Japanese pronunciation "kun", "koku" is the pronunciation "one" of Chinese extraction). Kazu mono uchi: Bishû Osafune No ju Sukesada saku???????? Bishû Osafune Sukesada?????? These blades from time to time carry also a nengo Precautions: these blades with such signatures are to 90% of Kazu mono uchi but there are exceptions and it is necessary to judge blade in hand, the percentage can decrease if these blades carry a nengo. Blades of quality: These are blades whose signature is long taking again the personal name of the blacksmith, having a nengo: Bizen kuni No ju Osafune Yosozaemon No Jô Sukesada saku?????????????? I draw your attention to the syntax of the beginning of signature of these blades of qualities: ?????? Bizen koku No jû Osafune....... The kanji "Jû? "must always be before Osafune. One could say in French that it is a fault of syntax, but it is the characteristic of the authentic signatures of the blades of Bizen quality. If on a blade sweats Koto Bizen you see syntax: ?????? Bizen koku Osafune jû with the kanji "jû" after Osafune, flee!!!! To 99% it is a gi mei. If known Bizen katana has a throat of time, whatever the signature, it is probable that you deal with blade of quality, even if the mei starts with Bishû Osafune. The niji mei can be good blades, the Tadamitsu line one is accustomed of this style of signature. All the blades whose signature starts with Bizen koku No jû Osafune is not inevitably soshin, it is true but by opposition, all the blades of quality sweats Bizen start with this signature. One of the features of this time is that it saw disappearing the utsuri from the Bizen blades, the utsuri revêt enormously of different forms, it can be in denies, in nioi, diffuse. One cannot bind the disappearance of the utsuri Bizen to the appearance of blade in KB denies deki since the utsuri disappears even from the blades in nioi deki. One regularly finds practically utsuri that in the Tadamitsu line with bô-utsuri. It is probable that the appearance of the kazu mono uchi, of the new processes of production and of a new time gradually brought this disappearance of the utsuri, this one having passed of mode. Characteristics of kazu mono uchi: Suguta: resemble the Oei blades but with a tendency to fray in the higher part (in short, like the blades of the time, that does not help too much) Nagasa: these blades follow the tendency of the moment, they have a nagasa approximately 65 cm at the beginning of the wars Onin, era of the katate uchi, to pass to approximately to 70 cm, with a longer nakago in the years 1520. Hamon: even thing, it follows the tendency of the moment, Koshi No Hiraita, crab grips Hada: it is there that one is ready to see the difference. The blades of quality from time to time have a steel very refined with a very fine ji denies, an impression of velvet. The kazu mono uchi, have, of share employment to the saving in Tamagane, a fine skin which after some polishings reveal the shingane, aspect dull of metal with forgery utsuri, hada being able to be in masame and in general coarse. Boshi: this one is often different on the two sides (but once more it is not obligatory). The general impression emerging from these blades which arrived to us at the present time is that of a quickly made work or blade having suffered much. All judges obviously blade in hand, for memory, it exists a blade "Bishû Osafune Sukesada" Juyo Token... Nevertheless, let us have a little indulgence for these blades bus which can be praised to have seen in France of tens of blades dating from the battle from Marignan In the same way, I wrote this text following an exchange with Jean. He is to be approached like a reflexion and not a truth impossible to circumvent In connection with the utsuri: Sato Kanzan sensei says that the high temperatures of hardening leading to forts denies harm the formation of the utsuri and consequently on the blades in Sôshû den such as that of Hiromitsu, Hiromasa, Fusamune... it could not y have utsuri. This being, before these blacksmiths, the macaw denies are not present even if there is denies in abundance, then why not a utsuri in Soshû, as Kokan Nagayama suggests it, although I do not have of them precise examples at the head. Though it is the blades with very many macaw denies are not famous as the best (I saw a known blade Sôshû D this type with a hagire undoubtedly of with too important constraints at the time of hardening making steel breakable). I believe that it is as well necessary to differentiate the "voluntary" utsuri from those more hazardous such as shirake utsuri. Sato Kanzan sensei says that the blades with a fort denies (while giving for example Sukesada, Katsumitsu or Kiyomitsu) always do not contain a utsuri. It never says. It speaks on the other hand about the importance of the ji denies in this phenomenon. Can be can think itself that the methods of hardening evolved/moved with the use of a different thermal shock leaving a great place with the ji denies. I will tend to think (with all the reserve that that) that should be differentiated ha imposes (container the many ones denies or less) ji, since it is a question of temperatures in this action. It should be remembered that utsuri denies it exists (to contradict the hasty assertions). The examples which I saw showing of denies important in these two zones do not contain the utsuri, with stronger reason nioi utsuri. I am persuaded that the fashion could affected the production of the utsuri in Bizen and a certain way in other schools. The passage of the midare utsuri to the bô utsuri in is undoubtedly an example. The fact of thinking that the forging mill kazu mono uchi is there for something is extremely probable. The influence and the radiation of Soshû den have also to play a part in these way of making with the influence of Sôden Bizen (Motoshige, Chôgi). In addition, it is extremely possible that the texture of the jigane by the kitae intervenes in this phenomenon, a broad kitae will not undoubtedly be less favorable, for example the Omiya school where O hada makes difficult the appearance of a clearly visible utsuri (although existing). In conclusion, I think without being sure for it that one can summarize the things in this manner, by knowing that other parameters intervene: - hamon in nioideki, ji denies fine: utsuri possible (Ichimonji, Yoshii for example) - hamon in niedeki and ji denies average: utsuri possible (Spoke for example) - hamon in niedeki, ji with fort and important ji denies: utsuri rarer (Nobukuni, for example) On the basis of the principle that that is referred more to the size of denies in the ji that with the density, and that the processes of formation of macaw deny carry out to an impossibility. In addition, which one can note it is that the presence of chikei is not at all incompatible with a utsuri (KB Bizen for example). If controlled, the utsuri is not systematic but it present because is wished by the artist. On this subject, there exists a blade of Kanewaka in Kaga with beautiful a utsuri. This blade was forged in order to prove that the absence of utsuri in its works was a choice.

 

 

Original can be found here in French... I think a registration process is required.

http://token.alldiscussion.net/koto-f6/ ... f644cfbc1d

 

Now to "translate" the Nihonto terms

 

Thanks again Jean

Regards

Peter

[Jean]

Peter,

 

I could not have translate it better

 

let us thank Kitsune for his comments and insight vision on utsuri, he is probably in France one of the three top students /experts on Nihonto. For NMB members interested iyou can register and have access to Kitsune post-it that you can babel, Rich Turner is already member.

 

You will find huge information on Nihonto ....(Kodogu, armour ...) and have a try at Kitsune kantei corner, you will cry ....

[Peter M]

Thanks again Jean,

 

Still have two questions left for any that want to take a stab at it (my very first online pun :D )

 

1. What can I do to preserve the blade prior to polish

2. Given that no real analysis of the blade could be conducted until after the polish should I be hunting for parts to make the blade complete with antique items or should I use new pices manufactured from the polisher or alternate store?

 

Regards

Peter

[Stephen]

peter i think a light oiling is all you need, IHO just a shirasaya is all for now, the poilsh will tell if you need to go forward. Do a good research on the togi youll want a well trained one for a first calss blade.

[Jean]

Peter,

 

1 - Ask the polisher to have a window opened in order to see if it is worth a full polish. Meanwhile, oil it slightly in order to prevent rust expansion

 

2 - Were I You, I'll wait the polisher answer before undertaking any fitting purchase, unless you prefer to get a complete set of fittings which could be used on your next peurchase, should this blade not being worth it.

 

Take care

[Peter M]

Thanks again,

 

the penny just droped!!!

 

Jean,

When you said early on in this post as well as just now, see if the polisher can "open a window" I assumed you meant open a slot in thier polishing schedule for my blade. Please correct me if I am wrong, you are saying to polish a small part of the blade to see what a full polish could bring.

 

I got there (to my mistake) by the "Window of opportunityâ€

 

I think I will wait to see what the polisher opinion is before further purchases. Thanks for the advice Jean

 

Stephen

I was thinking of a polisher in Brisbane Australia, as I am only an hour south. I have asked to see (via email) if I could drop by in a few weeks to have a look at how he works and hopefully ask a few questions. the link to the site is below

http://www.jigokustudios.com/

 

I dont know of any others in Australia

 

Will use the minerial oil I mentioned earlier in the meantime Thanks Stephen.

 

Thanks again

Peter

[sencho]

Please correct me if I am wrong, you are saying to polish a small part of the blade to see what a full polish could bring.

Peter

 

Exactly right Peter....

 

Also as Stephen says, do some research on polishers before you pick just one.... generally cheapest is definitely not best in the polishing process, but it is good to be informed by polishers at home and abroad.

 

Plenty of knowledgable people in Aus, so ask lots of questions!

 

Cheers

[Peter M]

Hello al again,

 

Just wanted to ask about polishers located in Australia. If anyone could provide me with a few names and websites/contact details that would be great.

Thanks again

Peter McVeigh

[Brian]

Peter,

 

I think you are going to find that as far as professional, reputable and recommended polishers go...there are none in Australia. This is the impression I am given by the advanced collectors there.

 

Brian