Question On A Sanmei Kanemoto Advertised Online

[Chango]

http://sanmei.com/contents/media/A69044_S1290_PUP.htm

 

Just a quick question; researching a sword of my own and judging by the price and wonky google translate results Sanmei looks to be attributing this sword to Magoroku Kanemoto (2nd gen Kanemoto)... is that right?

 

Sword is also papered: http://sanmei.com/Pictures/Sword/k_A69044_S1290.jpg

 

Just wanna check opinions on if it's safe to consider this a legit example of a Magoroku Kanemoto blade with a regular sanbonsugi hamon or if it's a questionable  attribution (or if I'm reading it wrong). Thanks!

[Ray Singer]

English language version. Add an '_E' to any listing URL.

 

http://sanmei.com/contents/media/A69044_S1290_PUP_E.htm

 

- Ray

[Fuuten]

If papered they go with that. I don't see any signs of the paper being fake.

 

I've done business with sanmei and is a great seller in my experience and Yuji trustworthy. Especially love their reference section, and that Tsunahiro katana they sold some time ago, that was a feast to look at. 

 

You can always contact them, maybe larger scan of the paper, but seems legit.

 

Edit: seeing the price-tag oh snap.

 

Edit: i don't think anyone other than a shinsa team can really answer that question - its papered.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 The jitetsu/jihada look encouraging to me. Hozon for 3,000,000 JPY at current exchange rates seems sort of stiff. The NBTHK, for reasons best known to them, seems to be more descriptively specific in recent years in their papers as to just who; perhaps if submitted for TH they would be for that sword.

 Arnold F.

[Jean]

In fact kanteisho level is not an indication of price. I have seen hundred swords with a hozon kanteisho priced over 10k$. Iida Koendo has always a few swords with hozon or tokubetsu hozon kanteisho at a good price

 

http://iidakoendo.com/item/katana/

[Derek]

If the NBTHK feels a sword is Magoroku Kanemoto, they will add it in parenthesis.

 

 

[Derek]

And NTHK will usually quote generation on their worksheet. 

[seattle1]

Hello:

 A Hozon is not indicative of price in an mechanical way, however in Japan, where highly recognized shinsa are readily accessible, and for a name which is common and for which generation matters, and when the blade is priced at 3,000,000 JPY in today's market, yes, I think it is reasonable to say the price is "sort of stiff", not insane, just expensive. That prices gets into Juyo Token territory.

 Arnold F.

[Fuuten]

Hello:

 A Hozon is not indicative of price in an mechanical way, however in Japan, where highly recognized shinsa are readily accessible, and for a name which is common and for which generation matters, and when the blade is priced at 3,000,000 JPY in today's market, yes, I think it is reasonable to say the price is "sort of stiff", not insane, just expensive. That prices gets into Juyo Token territory.

 Arnold F.

Maybe, but for some owners they don't care for juyo (say they're not going to sell it in the next 10/15 years), they just want to know whether or not its authentic, thus hozon is enough for them.

[seattle1]

Hello:

 The point was not to instead  go and spend 3,000,000 JPY on a Juyo, but rather that for that much dough a more specific designation, when among the several Kanemoto that matters, seems like a reasonable expectation from the prospective buyers point of view. Jason asked a reasonable question and I tried to provide a reasonable answer.

 Arnold F.

[Fuuten]

My bad, i suppose i misread the tone!

[Chango]

Thank you for that trick Ray, an English version of the page is exactly what I needed! I couldn't find this sword on their English page when I tried to search from that angle. 

 

I did notice the Hozon papers only showed "Kanemoto" without naming a specific generation but I'm gathering that's more or less standard for the NBTHK on this group of smiths and it's rare to get a specific generation attribution at the Hozon level.

 

I guess I'm mostly wondering what trait(s) about the sword would lead Sanmei to call it Magoroku's work despite the regular sanbonsugi hamon. According to the other stuff I've been reading, Magoroku did irregular sanbonsugi and it didn't get regular until later generations.

 

I'm not actually in the market for this sword (wish I could drop $30K on a Nihonto!); my question goes along with a sword I am studying that I posted in the Nihonto forum...

 

Thanks!

[seattle1]

Jason:

 If one were to call it Magoroku that would follow primarily from the jitetsu/jihada and not from the hamon. Magoroku is mokume with masame, and according to the Hon'ami tradition the masame is not well fused in places and looks like ware, as does the image shown. The shinogi ji has strong masame, as does the image. All of his hamon are not necessary sanbonsuji, though the one shown appears to be that, and it isn't the monotonous one tall, two short peaks throughout as is common for the later ones.

 Arnold F.

[Jacques]

There are several generations of Magoroku Kanemoto, not a single one

[seattle1]

Jacques:

 See my post #10 above.

 Arnold F.

[Chango]

Jason:

 If one were to call it Magoroku that would follow primarily from the jitetsu/jihada and not from the hamon. Magoroku is mokume with masame, and according to the Hon'ami tradition the masame is not well fused in places and looks like ware, as does the image shown. The shinogi ji has strong masame, as does the image. All of his hamon are not necessary sanbonsuji, though the one shown appears to be that, and it isn't the monotonous one tall, two short peaks throughout as is common for the later ones.

 Arnold F.

 

Thanks! paying more attention to this.

[Jacques]

Jason:

 If one were to call it Magoroku that would follow primarily from the jitetsu/jihada and not from the hamon. Magoroku is mokume with masame, and according to the Hon'ami tradition the masame is not well fused in places and looks like ware, as does the image shown. The shinogi ji has strong masame, as does the image. All of his hamon are not necessary sanbonsuji, though the one shown appears to be that, and it isn't the monotonous one tall, two short peaks throughout as is common for the later ones.

 Arnold F.

 

I have to disagree whit that. Magoroku shodai's jigane is mostly itame nagare with some straight grains, sometimes mixed with O-hada and hada-dachi. Mokume is relatively rare.

[Surfson]

There is another thread on Magoroku Kanemoto.   If I am not mistaken, Magoroku refers to only the second generation.   He was known for a particular jizo boshi, but I can't see the boshi in the photo on the website.  Cheers, Bob

 

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/7327-kanemoto/

 

 

[Jean]

There were two generations of Magoroku Kanemoto. When somebody makes reference to Magoroku Kanemoto, it is always at 99% to the Shodai, who cares about the nidai even if he is jyo jyo saku. The jihada of the shodai as mentioned by Jacques is itame/masame, now there so many exceptions in Nihonto that why should not we encounter mokume in some of his blades. I have learn to never say never in Nihonto.

[Surfson]

Thanks Jean.  

[Chango]

During my info digging I've found there is an incredible amount of variation in swords attributed to Kanemoto 2 (Magoroku), multiple variations in the mei and seemingly exceptions to nearly every "magoroku trait".

 

For example, in Sesku's Koto Kantei there's one with a ko maru boshi instead of a jizo boshi and the literature says irregular sanbonsugi for Nidai Kanemoto but I keep finding examples like the subject of this thread that seem quite regular. There also seems to be A LOT of examples in museums and in private hands/on the market for a single illustrious smith from 500 years ago especially when the swords were made for and would have been used/abused/destroyed during an extended time of widespread and brutal warfare.

 

I've gotta wonder if there was a group of smiths turning out swords under the Nidai in quantity and/or a 100+ years of Kanemoto smiths turning out very similar work and everyone just wants to believe they've got an example from the master.

[Jean]

Now the description of work of smiths in books can only be general and state the most commonly encountered features.

 

For those who have Markus Sesko book e-Japanese swordsmiths Index, have a look at the Senju'in smith Sukemitsu and the features of his rare works. Compare them to my tanto Sukemitsu in "Kantei for fun". No utsuri on the tanto, the hada and hamon are different. So, you see...

[Darcy]

Hello:

 A Hozon is not indicative of price in an mechanical way, however in Japan, where highly recognized shinsa are readily accessible, and for a name which is common and for which generation matters, and when the blade is priced at 3,000,000 JPY in today's market, yes, I think it is reasonable to say the price is "sort of stiff", not insane, just expensive. That prices gets into Juyo Token territory.

 Arnold F.

 

 

This one I have to poke at because this is the western "ladder theory" fallacy.

 

A mint condition Tokubetsu Hozon katana by Naotane is going to run you 5 million yen and it's going to be hard to get through Juyo. 

 

A Kotetsu Juyo Token is going to run 20-60 million yen and not be Tokubetsu Juyo.

 

Kiyomaro is another one. 

 

The price is set first and foremost on the blade and who made it, attribution is the key. The secondary factor is the papers because it clarifies the level of the blade relative to its peers. So there is no "Juyo Token territory." 

 

I remember in the past I sold a blade that I myself papered to Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon, and it had great koshirae with no papers as I never sent it in. That blade I wanted $42,000 because of what it is and who it was attributed to. The buyer was OK with that but he asked their friends and they came out with that "it's Juyo Token price." 

 

It was *cheap* for what it was, which was a mint condition blade by a top level smith and a really great koshirae. But in the US particularly people get wound up in the paper being the primary function on the price and not the other way around.

 

So his friends gave him hell and they stuck knives in my back over this thing being so expensive and into Juyo territory.

 

I cut the price a bit and he submitted the blade 2 months later and got Juyo (which is exactly what I told him would happen), and now he has a mint condition Kamakura blade with Juyo papers and great koshirae and he's paid $39k. Well now it's looking really really cheap. So he goes and sells it and gets $55k. 

 

If you understand what the thing is the papers are just guidance to support the bottom line. There is no top line. The top line is based on what the thing is. 

 

It is not uncommon at all to have Hozon and TH blades and items in Japan going all the way into the $100k range. It depends on what the thing is, who made it, the condition, rarity and so on. And some of those things may be incompatible with Juyo, and sometimes it is obvious that they indicate the blade is going to be Juyo.

 

Like in this case.

 

This year I sold three blades that passed Tokubetsu Juyo for their owners and I told them each time it was going to pass. The prices that they paid I am sure their friends said that it was really high "for Juyo" but what they were paying for was a top example of the smith, the bottom line underscored by Juyo but if they knew what they were doing they knew they had one submission Tokuju blades. All of them got selected for display in the Sword Museum after.

 

So, discard this concept of "Juyo price".

 

The cheapest Juyo are not even the ones people should want to pursue because those are the ones that fell over the line backwards and have the most of the price built in from the papers. 

 

I had to pay $72k for my Kanemitsu with no papers at all on it so considerable risk on the attribution. Once it passed Hozon it did not immediately become $15,000 of value because it's Hozon and $30k really expensive as a Hozon. It went up in value because the risk went down about who it could be attributed to and it got a good name. When it passed Juyo again the price goes up because the risk goes down more for most buyers. 

 

But any dummy with a bit of experience could pick the blade up without any knowledge and say, "Oh, this is a Kanemitsu that's going to pass Juyo" and that's what the price is based on. Before papering people should have known that and obviously did because someone bid me right to $72k and I'd have gone higher. 

 

I think it will pass Tokuju but I haven't tried it. Not on my site for sale and I don't care about the paper unless I have to sell it and stop some guy's friends from crapping on a mint condition flawless Kanemitsu as being too expensive because it's "only Juyo."

 

Ladder theory has to die because it's all wrong, and it points people to bargains at the bottom rungs and says stuff at the top rungs are expensive. The opposite is true. The one that was $72k before it ever hit Hozon is not going to inflate "just because" it got Juyo. It's $72k with no papers to brag about.

 

But if you can find a mid 70s crapper that passed Juyo then but won't pass now, you can sell it to someone who will fall in love with the papers and think he is buying a bargain because it's Juyo. 

 

SWORD COMES FIRST

 

Papers are support level, not top line.

 

No two Juyo years are the same. So they support different values at the bottom line.

 

Getting to the blade in question and the "stiff" price. Kanemoto is popular because of the great reputation for cutting and this means a lot more over here than for people who see only hamon and nothing else. This one has decent mounts, a bit suriage unfortunately, but still good length. I'd agree that the price is "stiff" but he's pricing it not for us, he's pricing it for Japanese collectors who will pay the premium on Kanemoto. There is a premium on him, on Muramasa, on Nosada, on Yosozaemon, in particular in the late Muromachi. 

 

It's priced like that because someone is going to pay it.

 

Which brings me to the last point that there is no blue book and people will pay what they think it's worth, so there is a difference of opinion in what one guy prefers. Some guys want the scratch n dent special. If this Kanemoto was perfect it would be a lot higher. I would personally wait for a perfect one but I would not have a problem with the higher price.

 

The typical buyer says I don't want this one because it's not perfect, then the perfect one comes by at twice the price and they say wow that's too expensive I just saw one at half the price. I'll wait for a cheaper one. 

 

There are a lot of traps to fall into when trying to make some kind of theory of price that will let you say if any particular piece is too expensive or too cheap. There is a blade available online which is twice the price of my most expensive piece. To some it will be far too expensive, but to others that one will be cheap. I can tell you only this, that vendor owns it, knows it is something special, and he knows someone will agree with him and pay his price. 

 

The other 99.9999999999% of humanity will be welcome to have their own opinion but would not be buyers at 10% of the price let alone 80% or 50% or wherever they argue it should be at. His pricing is a conversation between him and the buyer. He will have a buyer for it I'm sure. 

 

So it ends up being like people who want to argue that super bowl tickets are too expensive and overpriced but they sell out every year. Someone wants them and pays for them. If it's truly overpriced then you have to die before it sells. But then you never get the answer.

[Chango]

Thanks Darcy; I enjoy your posts and always learn something new from them!

 

As a new guy looking around, I do have to wonder, what is this obsession with papers all about. Is it the same among Japanese collectors? Is it due to a lack of collector's confidence in their identification skills, the mountain of (frankly) garbage and outright fakes we have to sift through to find quality nihonto, the hassle, price and intimidation factor of putting a sword through shinsa, maybe all of the above and more?

[Jean]

If you are interested in Nihonto, you will come to papers Jason, if only just to know what you have bought or a confirmation.

 

You are talking about "lack of collectors' confidence in their identification skills" Welcome to the Nihonto world, there are more than 25000 smiths identified...