NBTHK Juyo shinsa

[Jean]

It seems that the first Juyo shinsa were very hard so very prized, then more and more submitted swords passed as the years went on. I have heard that dealers in Japan use a book or a list which gives the number of swords admitted at each session and use accordingly a coefficient value to a Juyo sword depending on the session when it passed.

 

Question:

 

Has anybody witnessed this

Has anybody this list, meaning, number of swords admitted at each shinsa?

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Jean,

I have heard much of this also. Juyo Token Nado Zufu # 1 is .5 cm thick; # 26 is 6.7 cm thick. Of course some of this must have to do with the novelty of the concept back when the NBTHK started to issue Juyo papers: fewer collectors would submit to a 1st session than would to a much later session. And there must be blades that passed in the 80s and 90s that are just as special as those that passed the early shinsas, but early Juyo papers seem to carry more weight than later papers. I haven't heard of a book with the # passing each year, unless the printed index of Juyo Token Nado Zufu is meant (wouldn't take much of a book to contain 55 numbers).

Collect the blade, not the paper.

Grey

[Mark]

Jean

 

I understand that in certain years there were a lot of swords that passed Juyo, others there were few that passed. The standards seem to change. At the beginning it was hard to pass, then in the late 70's -1980's-90's there were a lot that passed each year, then in recent years it has tightened up again and fewer pass. If you know that then it makes sense that a blade that passed when it was standards were "loose" might not pass now. So if I see a sword for sale that passed in a year when things were "tight" I would not give it a second thought, but if it passed in a year when there were a lot of swords passed then I would give the sword a second look and pay more attention to the sword understanding that there were great swords that passed that year but maybe some lower quality ones made it as well. The number that passed each year is in the Juyo Zufu for that year so if you have a set of the zufu, or access to them, you can make a quick list of the number that passed each year. I do not have such a list but would like to have the numbers if anyone has it. I just keep in mine the dates and figure it that way. If you can tell the quality of a sword then it is not so important, but if you are a dealer, or are unsure then some background helps. I figure great swords make it each year, so there are great swords in each group, it just varies how many lesser swords made it as well.

 

The old adage -- "buy the sword not the paper" applies

[Bugyotsuji]

Nothing to do with the price of fish but I heard a breath of a rumour that some early Shinto swordsmith blades may be allowed for consideration in the very near future.

[cabowen]

Nothing to do with the price of fish but I heard a breath of a rumour that some early Shinto swordsmith blades may be allowed for consideration in the very near future.

 

??? Shinto blades, as well as shinshinto, have been awarded Juyo for many years....????

[Loco Al]

Jean

 

I understand that in certain years there were a lot of swords that passed Juyo, others there were few that passed. The standards seem to change. At the beginning it was hard to pass, then in the late 70's -1980's-90's there were a lot that passed each year, then in recent years it has tightened up again and fewer pass.

 

Don't forget that before 1972 there was no Tokubetsu Juyo award, only Juyo from 1971 and earlier. Therefore, I would hope that prior to 1972 they did not award Juyo distinction arbitrarily.

 

Alan

[Jean]

Buy the sword and not the paper

 

In fact, though it is my banner, it is irrelevant to the topic, which is to sum up:

 

"Has any member the number of blades which passed Juyo, year by year since the beginning".

 

BTW, it is very difficult to say why a blade passed Juyo compared to another. Furthermore, there are a lot of Juyo blades which cost less than hozon ones or unpapered ones :D

[Darcy]

I think you pretty much have to count them.

 

I think Juyo #1 has like 30, Juyo #8 has 81, and Juyo #26 has 364. Juyo #58 is back down to 93 results.

 

When I bought this up before that some sessions were not held in high regard compared to others I was challenged on it on a few levels. My own belief is that standards got pretty weak all together in the 70s. At the end of this you saw the introduction of Hozon and Tokubetsu Hozon and no more shinsas where they accepted this huge number of blades. There are very good blades rejected at Juyo now that need to be resubmitted. I don't get the feeling from those huge sessions in the 70s that they would have been rejected then.

 

Side note, Juyo was held twice a year in the first few sessions. So you kind of need to combine them to get the same effective passing rate per year.

 

I think standards are up but I just reviewed the Tokuju results at the sword museum and I was not impressed at all. At least one I thought should not even have been Juyo. Half of them had me scratching my head wondering how they could pass at Tokuju. Five or six to me were slam dunk "this is what it's all about" blades. A Norishige, Motoshige, two Yukimitsu, and one Shikkake I think it was, that has to be like king of all Yamato blades (81cm and challenges top level Soshu).

 

But half I think should not have been there.

[Bugyotsuji]

Nothing to do with the price of fish but I heard a breath of a rumour that some early Shinto swordsmith blades may be allowed for consideration in the very near future.

 

??? Shinto blades, as well as shinshinto, have been awarded Juyo for many years....????

 

Oops, yes, they must have been discussing Tokubetsu Juyo...?

[Guido]

I clearly remember having seen a couple of tokubetsu jūyō swords by Hizen Tadayoshi, so shintō have already received those papers. Not sure about shinshintō, but I *think* I remember at least a Sa Yukihide and Kiyomaro.

[Darcy]

Just to be clear there are Shinto blades in the first Juyo session and begin with the 2nd Tokuju session. They have always been considered. There are I think about 4 Koto Juyo for every 1 Shinto Juyo (by memory). There are fewer by ratio in Tokuju, but there are relatively many, I was just talking about a Tokuju Echizen Yasutsugu here the other day...

[Bugyotsuji]

Apologies for the ignorance and thread-napping.

 

I withdraw my comments above. It was just a snatch of conversation and I had got the wrong end of the stick. What they were saying was that it was approaching the time that the Shinto smith Kozuke Daijo Sukesada might be among the candidates to be considered for Juyo...

[Jean]

You are forgiven my son

[Bugyotsuji]

Ah.... that feels good! :thud:

[Darcy]

To correct myself the magnificent 80cm Yamato Tokuju blade is a Senjuin. I think it might have gone from no papers through to Tokuju all this year.

[chi fan wong]

just came back from the exhibition of the tokuju display.

i was blown away.

it was my first time there and i was already scheming how to hold the place up and covet all those swords....

regarding shinto tokuju, several were there on display:

a tadayoshi, a teruhiro, hankei, yasutsugu, sukehiro, nagayuki,and two kunihiros.