Chinese fakes, I presume…

[Gabriel L]

Hello,

 

Sorry for diluting this lovely subforum, but a Reddit user asked my opinion on these items. (EDIT: here is a color-corrected version, assuming the windowsill is white…). I told him that the ones with square openings were (probably fake) Chinese coins, about which I know less than nothing. And I added that I was “99% sure” the others (the “tsuba”) were Chinese fakes, for myriad reasons (odd depictions, wrong colors/patinas, strangely-proportioned hitsu-ana, soft details, similar to each other in their alienness, etc. etc. etc.).

 

In the interest of giving that 1% remainder its due diligence, though, I promised to confirm with some of the more knowledgeable tsuba collectors here.

 

Thanks,

 

—G.

[Grey Doffin]

I'm with you Gabriel. I know nothing about the coins and the tsuba look to be fakes.

Grey

[Geraint]

You are spot on with the Chinese coins but I don't think the tsuba are fakes at all. Hard to say with these images but don't dismiss them too quickly.

(Mind you, if he keeps them on that wet window sill they won't be much good for very long!)

 

All the best.

[Gabriel L]

Geraint,

 

Can you give reasons? They are certainly much better than the average POS fake, but I am not convinced they are Japanese, and I see multiple reasons to suspect they are not.

 

EDIT: I added a color-corrected version, assuming that the windowsill in the photo is white.

 

Looking again with the better color rendition… I admit I am not so confident as I initially was.

 

Reasons I suspect them: Patina doesn’t look quite right to me, especially the thin silvery areas. Gilt is similarly not very good. Mei has poor spacing / positioning. Hitsu-ana appear a bit large and round. The fish depiction seems off.

[Alex A]

Compare the Chinese coins to these similar Japanese coins from around the late 1600,s to early 1700,s. None of the Chinese coins show much sign of ware. As for patina, difficult to say from looking at the pictures but does look false, id be tempted to give them a miss.

[Antti]

I must say, if the tsuba are fakes, as a newbie, I find it rather scary. At least the Soten style on the far left looked quite convincing. Perhaps they are getting better at this. There still something fishy about that nakago ana area, and the patina seems to be inconsistent, but still...

 

Really keen to hear whether they are real or not.

[Gabriel L]

I confess to my embarrassment that I find my opinion swaying back to the possibility that they are real, especially since color-correcting the photo to remove the strong blue cast. Never let it be said that I am too proud to admit when my first assessment is wrong…

 

I will refrain from further comment in the interest of letting others have their say.

[ROKUJURO]

I cannot comment on the coins but the TSUBA look like originals to me. They have very likely been treated with a steel brush, so all patina is gone and all edges became bright and shiny. The SOTEN TSUBA may not be a genuine one but a Japanese fake as there are many of them.

The rounded square TSUBA on the right might not look too bad when restored, I believe.

[Alex A]

Ive just noticed from looking at the picture of the tsuba that the coins are huge, possibly commemorative coins, not sure.

(pics have now been removed)

[Gabriel L]

Update, the owner has submitted new photos:

 

http://imgur.com/a/XWNtx

[Lance]

Probably better to judge in hand but they look (maybe) late Edo, with the patina cleaned off. Only thing that really stands out as suspicious on the tsuba below; at 7:00 there's a western style 5 pointed star over the flower blossom. I've never seen a star like this on any Edo/Meiji tsuba, looks similar to Chinese (communist) or Imperial Japanese?

Regards,

Lance

[Grey Doffin]

The 1st thing I look at on a tsuba I suspect is less than wonderful is the nakago hitsu-ana. On all these tsuba the anas look at best never been mounted and at worst cast reproduction. So I ask myself, what are the odds that someone set out to collect tsuba and ended up with 5 with identical nakago hitsu ana? If 1 or 2 of the 5 were like this I could buy them as late and never mounted but real, but 5 of 5? The iron looks grainy also. Maybe it's the pictures but I still think they're wrong.

And if I'm wrong (very possible) the best these are is quite low quality.

Grey

[kaigunair]

.. Only thing that really stands out as suspicious on the tsuba below; at 7:00 there's a western style 5 pointed star over the flower blossom. I've never seen a star like this on any Edo/Meiji tsuba, looks similar to Chinese (communist) or Imperial Japanese?

 

I believe that's supposed to be the back side of a plum blossom.

 

Given the quality of current reproductions and fakes coming out of China, these really need to be seen in hand. Some or all may turn out to be real, but all the them are on the low-end scale of quality...

[Gabriel L]

One more update. The owner has registered for the NMB and is waiting for approval, but in the meantime he posted this closeup of the Soten-stye tsuba mei (again, color-corrected by me).

[Brian]

Membership has been confirmed.

Hmm....if I had to stock my neck out, I would say the "Soten" one is real...but later average work, not the big guys of course. We see a lot of these. But real imho.

The others...I think fake. Porous looking seppa-dai of typical casting quality, with a patina that looks like all the modern fakes. Maybe modern made higher class repros, but I don't think of any age. Ford would be the one to say for sure.

 

Brian

[Mason T]

Hey, owner here. Thanks for the help so far. They were all given to my grandfather together by a business associate sometime in the 1960s and have been in my dad's storage for the past 50 years. Maybe that helps with whether or not they are "recent" fakes. I find it weird that he would be given an authentic one mixed in with a bunch of fakes, but stranger things have happened.

 

You guys have at least proved that it would be worth having them professionally appraised, but I've never done that before. I don't know who to go to or who to trust. Let me know if you have any other ideas or would like more pictures.

 

Special thanks to Gabriel for color correcting my tragic pictures as well as directing me to this forum.

 

Mason

[Gabriel L]

You guys have at least proved that it would be worth having them professionally appraised, but I've never done that before. I don't know who to go to or who to trust. Let me know if you have any other ideas or would like more pictures.

 

As I said on Reddit, I think you should take them to a sword club or sword show (Tampa, Chicago, San Fran etc.) to get looked at by collectors and dealers in-person. That will give you much better info than you can get from online photos, give you a variety of feedback, and won’t cost you more than transportation cost. Plus you’ll get to see some real stuff (blades & fittings) as a bonus.

 

You could of course submit them to shinsa (professional appraisal, e.g. NBTHK) but when it comes to fittings usually only high-end stuff is papered, so I would advise against bothering in this case. It costs a bit, too.

[cabowen]

You could of course submit them to shinsa (professional appraisal, e.g. NBTHK) but when it comes to fittings usually only high-end stuff is papered, so I would advise against bothering in this case. It costs a bit, too.

 

Or (shameless plug) the NTHK-NPO shinsa this February in Tampa....

[Gabriel L]

:lol: Yes, should have mentioned that. That has the advantage of not having to send them to and from Japan, with the shipping fees and waiting times.

[Mason T]

I've been talking to Fred Geyer, who says he would be interested in buying them if I want, but could at least appraise them for me. Does anyone have anything to say about him? I live up on Vancouver Island in Canada, so getting to a club or show would be a pain.

[Gabriel L]

From the link list I sent, the Vancouver Japanese Sword Appreciation Society is at 1100 Chestnut Street, Vancouver, BC, Canada V6J3J9 (Telephone 604-943-7171). I know Vancouver Island is not Vancouver, but some parts of it are still relatively close… is it still too far for you?

 

Fred has been on this site a while, sold a number of items in the classifieds section with no complaints I know of, and his own site http://www.swordsandtsuba.com lists good stuff. I have never dealt with him myself but he certainly knows the subject.

[Mason T]

It's an expensive and inconvenient ferry ride away. I'll consider it. I ride a motorbike and have some family over there, so a trip would be fun. I like the idea of using Fred because he could buy them if I decide that I want to sell them once they're appraised.

[Gabriel L]

I just figured out the Sōten mei when I saw an identical mei posted in this other thread.

 

Front:

R: 藻柄子入道 Sōheishi [or "Mogarashi"] Nyūdō… (name of the mainline Sōten masters, often copied)

L: 宗典製 …Sōten sei (…Sōten made [this])

 

Slightly suspicious perhaps that it has no "Hikone jū" etc. on the back?

[raven2]

I think Grey is right. There is something about these tsuba that just doesn't ring right with me. Patina is off, subject renditions look a little strange and having 5 ubu tsuba is just too much of a coincidence. I am not sure I like the mei in the "soten" one. Even if they are real, I would not be interested in any of them but if they are fakes, they are certainly getting better.

[Peter Bleed]

Wonderful thread! I'd like to see all of these guards, but if I had to vote based on the information presented, I'd say they are all cast. Look closely at the "Soten" signature. The marks are round and soft. Chinese, Japanese? Who knows, all I can say is, I don't want these bad boys. But they will certainly confuse the market.

Peter