Opinions on this tsuba

[Davis]

Hi

This is my first post and I will make it as brief as I can. I have acquired the occassional Japanese sword over the years but my knowledge of tsuba is very superficial. So can anyone help provide any information on this one please. It's from a wakizashi that I have and measures 7cmx7cm and the rim is 5mm. I believe it depicts the "endless circle of the seven treasures" and I would date it to mid Edo. All opinions and comments welcome.

Mick Davis

[christianmalterre]

Dear Davis,

me definitely do wonder you did not get an response yet!

Attached is an "good friend" of mine whom is published in Sasano Masayuki-San´s "Silver book"(Masterpieces from the Sasano collection)

N"78-An Kyo

Citation:

"The patterns are meshed like the intricate knots of a net.-Superior craftsmanship combined with high quality iron as aesthetically pleasing"(citation text)

Measurements:

88 x 82 x 4.2 mm(Mimi) /Seppa-Dai 4 mm

"Seven Treasures"(shippo)

Kanei

 

You are certainly correct-me just would range it slightly latter due it´s rather "massiveness"-Nice find!

such-Utsushi of prominant stylism...may be Kyo-i but doupt...do tend for Shoami here in your´s....

Either way-Excellent of course(in seeing such).

It´s quality could but still be better,is but still outstanding to the mass!

 

Christian

[Soshin]

Hi Mick,

 

I agree with Christian M. on this analysis of your tsuba. Nice find.

[John A Stuart]

It is a nice shippo composition, but, a level of skill below the Kaneie example. John

[ROKUJURO]

Gentlemen,

 

I have a question to this discussion:

 

Why would a finer design be 'better' in comparison? I cannot competently compare the workmanship and executing skills of these two TSUBA without seeing them in-hand. From the pictures both seem to be well made, quite regularly and even. The KYO-SUKASHI (John, not KANEIE!) from the SASANO book may be older and of course it transmits the impression of lightness and elegance, but from a technical or martial view, Mick's TSUBA might be as 'good' as SASANO SAN's, I feel. I don't believe there was less work involved in the production.

 

For me, the steel quality is difficult to judge from the pictures, and the shapes of the SEPPA-DAI are - at least to my old eyes - not so much different to base an opinion of the quality on this.

 

So please enlighten me what criteria you would use for a quality judgement (perhaps apart from general quality differences between KYO SUKASHI and SHOAMI).

[Gunome]

Hi,

 

Compared to the Kyo sukashi, the circles of the composition are not regular and some turn to be oval. Here is the lack of workamaship point out by previous replies.

[John A Stuart]

It was the way the design and mimi seem more finished in the book pic tsuba. That and the 'lightness of being'. Kyosukashi, I took the call from the prev. post labeled 'Kanie' and of course that would make much more sense. John

[kunitaro]

I would like to see "mimi"

Kyo-sukashi from the book looks like Kaku-mimi-koniku,

and how is Mick's tsuba ?

[christianmalterre]

first of all,i do have to beg mine pardon to you John,me did write mine comment maybe to lavishly and fast yesterday-

i did write Kanei-which of course should ben written Kan-ei...

Kan-ei is the era this very Tsuba from Sasano-san is attributed to.(Early 17th)

 

Dear Jean C.

Quality of an Tsuba is to ben seen in it´s "artistical merit"

The Tsuba from Sasano-san gives an superior impression of "visually repeated and equally intricate(maybe even overlapping)meshing...this can also ben seen on the mimi.It gives impression to be light,yet but powerful.

 

The Tsuba shown by Mick here contrary gives an rather crude and bolt impression,it looks harsh and "stiff"...there´s evident lack of "lightness""refinement""sensibility" in this theme ben copied here...

Due this-the Quality is far below to the published Kyo-Sukashi.

(comparing those both exemplaires together-which of course is not correct if doing such)

 

such "stylistical" observations do give an serious collector possibility in correctly attributing an candidate to age,school ect...

Quality(in Tsuba)is one of the most leading and important factors.

This Tsuba by Mick maybe even could get named an Kyo Guard...

It but definitely lacks refinement and taste of the early Kyo,prime point this "school" is that reknowned for.

 

did this answer your´s question?

 

Christian

[John A Stuart]

My fault Christian, wasn't thinking. John

[Guido]

The KYO-SUKASHI (...) from the SASANO book may be older and of course it transmits the impression of lightness and elegance, but from a technical or martial view, Mick's TSUBA might be as 'good' as SASANO SAN's, I feel. I don't believe there was less work involved in the production.

Maybe the same amount of work, but don't you think the outcome is quite different?

 

Here's another (papered) Kyô-sukashi example for comparison from my (former) collection that I sold to another forumite a few years ago:

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

Again I think Christian does a good job of summarizing a good set of observation about the tsuba posted for discussion. I consider it a Shoami school copy nothing more or less. The key to the attribution is the shape of the rim and thickness of the sukashi elements.

 

PS. It is also want I consider a good beginners tsuba.

[Davis]

Dear All

Thank you all very much for taking the time to answer my request for information. The depth and detail of your replies is very impressive and most helpful. I do not collect tsuba, although I do find them fascinating. The forum is a wonderful educational aid and I have found many gems hidden in it's archives, I am attaching another picture that may be helpful. Once again thank you all very much.

Mick D

[ROKUJURO]

......Maybe the same amount of work, but don't you think the outcome is quite different?.....

Guido,

 

of course I see the difference, and you can be sure I like the KYO SUKASHI better! My question was meant mainly to start a discussion on the aesthetics and artistical merits of a TSUBA in relation to the above used description 'better'.

 

The SHOAMI TSUBA (let's call it so) has a lack of regularity, which seems to be intentional. Some of the circles are oval, but there is a symmetry of these irregularities on both sides. I cannot believe that the TSUBASHI could not do better, so I think it is his style, or at least his intention. In this respect, I don't see why a regular design should be of more value. Perhaps it is our eyes and/or our cultural education which makes us believe that a 'correct' execution of a certain design is 'better'?

 

Let me put a (virtual) JINGO TSUBA on display. It will have a charisma of power and self-confidence, but nevertheless it will probably show a somewhat crude and irregular, not well refined design execution. We may call that 'bold'. Why is this one 'better' than another TSUBA?

 

I have a feeling that any evaluation we try depends on what and how we have learned to see. Of course we add some obvious facts like steel and surface quality, but the main impression seems to be the design, and I was asking myself how much of my own appreciation is due to education and habituation. I found it interesting to ponder about that.

[kunitaro]

Mick san,

Thank you for showing us "mimi".

It is "Kaku-mimi ko-niku".

So, I think it is Kyo-sukashi (Mid Edo),

however, I think, this tsuba has been in the fire before,

Kind of burnt...

as you see the back stuff inside of sukashi, That is burnt rust, you can see very little (black stuff) left on the surface of mimi as well.

the tsuba was burnt, and cleaned surface then re-patina-ed.

This is one of reasons why surface of this tsuba is (or looks like) a bit rougher than tsuba from Sasano book, also the edge of sukashi is less sharp.

....In my opinion....

What do you think ?

[ROKUJURO]

first of all, I have to beg your pardon John, I wrote my comment maybe too lavishly and fast yesterday -

I wrote Kanei - which of course should be written Kan-ei...

Kan-ei is the era this very Tsuba from Sasano-san is attributed to.(Early 17th)

 

Dear Jean C.

Quality of a Tsuba is to be seen in it´s "artistical merit"

The Tsuba from Sasano-san gives a superior impression of "visually repeated and equally intricate (maybe even overlapping) meshing...this can also be seen on the mimi. It gives impression to be light, but yet powerful.

 

The Tsuba shown by Mick here on the contrary gives a rather crude and bold impression, it looks harsh and "stiff"...there´s evident lack of "lightness","refinement","sensibility" in this theme been copied here...Due to this, the Quality is far below that of the published Kyo-Sukashi (comparing both examples, which of course is not correct).

 

Such "stylistical" observations give a serious collector a possibility in correctly attributing a candidate to age, school etc...

Quality (in Tsuba) is one of the most leading and important factors. This Tsuba by Mick could maybe even get called a Kyo Guard...

But it definitely lacks refinement and taste of the early Kyo, prime point this "school" is that renowned for.

 

Did this answer your question?....

 

Christian,

 

thank you! Yes, I understand what you mean.

 

Nevertheless I find it difficult to compare both TSUBA, the more as Mick's example has a somewhat corroded surface which makes it difficult for me to get an impression of the steel.

 

The criteria for evaluating the artistical appearance are indeed difficult to grasp. As I mentioned above, all seems to depend on training one's eyes, comparing objects, and learning the vocabulary.....

 

Finally, it is obviously not easy to judge a TSUBA to be 'good' or 'better' in terms of artistical merit.

[Davis]

Thanks for comments and observations. What do I think? I still have more questions than answers. Studying the piece makes me think it's creator would have had the skill to execute a finer, more geometric design if that had been his intention. A red hue is evident in the picture, which would normally indicate fire damage but in natural light this is not seen and is due to the lighting conditions when I took that picture. Re-patination?. That is a possibility. Do I think it has been? No.

 

The sword is 45cm long and of wide proportions. O-kissaki, mumei, ubu. F/K- Soten copy -Uji River. Menuki of foilage/fowl - very average. The entire sword had been subject to years of neglect and abuse, covered in some unknown substance, solified glue/shellac? With regard to the tsuba, several hours of removing the grime with a soft dry cloth revealed it as it is shown now. Beauty or is it in the eye of the beholder? Re-patination? Yes, a possibility but done decades ago. Do I think so? No. I think the poor storage has lead to the permeation of moisture lifting the original patination. In effect spalling. Spalling can also be evidenced in fire damaged buildings!!

 

Getting back to the blade, Shinshinto? Yes. Sobre, strong functional - I should imagine very. Menuki/FK everyday average. So what quality of tsuba would be expected to bo found with such a sword?? For me the word enigma comes to mind. I will try to send another picture soon - I tried yesterday but they were to large became invalid and disapeared into the ether along with what I had written.

Mick