Another Higo copy

[Marius]

I wonder how high this one will go and where it will reappear

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A-Japanese-iron ... 5af0b5e2a3

[RobertM]

I have to say I personally don't find the design appealing

[Ford Hallam]

Mariusz,

 

why do you think this is a copy? And what sort of copy do you mean?

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Marius]

Ford,

 

at first glance a tsuboi copy of Shimizu.

[Soshin]

Hi Mariusz K.,

 

This is one aspect I don't like about Higo tsuba in general is that they are often copied and the copies are of such poor quality. This tsuba you linked to on eBay is another example. This is just my opinion.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Marius]

This is one aspect I don't like about Higo tsuba in general is that they are often copied and the copies are of such poor quality.

 

David,

 

as you say - copies are of poor quality. I think that just because of that they do not detract from genuine Higo work.

 

Same goes for all most Kaneie/Nobuie/Yamakichibei copies. They simply do not matter.

 

It gets really annoying, though, when copies are really good. Which is the case with Norisuke forgeries...

[Soshin]

Same goes for all those Kaneie/Nobuie/Yamakichibei copies. They simply do not matter.

 

It gets really annoying, though, when copies are really good. Which is the case with Norisuke forgeries...

 

Hi Mariusz K.,

 

That was one of point I didn't state but is an important point the Nobuie/Yamakichibei forgeries are much better and I would consider some of them worth collecting. Many if not all of these Higo forgeries are just plain bad and would consider them not worth collecting. Good to see we are no the same page. In regards to the real Kaneie/Nobuie/Yamakichibei tsuba I collect only photographs and books.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Pete Klein]

Of course there is also the reality that the copy is so good that it is mistaken for genuine...

[Ford Hallam]

Well I'm just in awe of the expertise displayed by those who can so confidently spot real Higo work from copies. I imagine there are hundreds of perfectly legitimate Higo works that will now be dismissed along with various other 'homage' type works as 'simply not mattering'.

 

And to state so absolutely; "copies are of poor quality" is to sound very fundamentalist, I fear. There are many copies that are recognised as being at least the equal of the original work that inspired them,. This is a fundamental of Japanese art. Not to recognise this is to reveal a very significant lack of understanding of a foreign artistic culture. I would hope that both gentlemen might reconsider their rather strident and, I'd suggest, unconsidered views before offering them as valid opinions to 'educate' newcomers to our field of study.

[Soshin]

There are many copies that are recognised as being at least the equal of the original work that inspired them,. This is a fundamental of Japanese art.

 

Hi Ford H.,

 

I completely agree with this statement this is a very fundamental aspect of Japanese art in general. Still not going to bid on the eBay tsuba which is the topic. It is not in my taste or budget for that matter. A good discussion on "copies in Japanese art" could be its very own topic.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Ford Hallam]

It's somewhat ironic, David, that your avatar is , in my opinion, one of those 'copies' you and Mariusz so confidently reject. It's certainly not by any of the mainline masters as you suppose. Having had the piece in my care I found very little to commend it really. My point being, perhaps it would be wiser to wait 10 or 20 years before making such absolute statements as to what constitutes quality in this field.

 

Failure to properly learn to asses the real qualities of any work, on it's own terms and without reference to artificial labels and classifications, will result in a very superficial appreciation of this art form. As an example, there is a general acceptance that all Goto work is top quality. However the truth is a great deal of the better generic work in the style of the Goto automatically gets accorded higher status than far finer work that was produced by 'lesser' studios. The reason for this anomaly is simple, the marketing of the name 'Goto' has been going on for centuries and simply applying the label raises the price regardless of actual quality.

 

The same is true of signatures of big names on tosogu. The unspoken implication is that all pieces bearing the mei of Haruaki Hogen, as an example, are all equally masterful. This is simply a nonsense and a potentially costly notion at that. Not all works created by an artists are of equal quality so it's absolutely essential to develop an ability to see this if you are not to be taken advantage of.

 

The same is very true of works 'after' or 'in the style of'. Simply discounting them all on the basis they are copies is to miss finding something exceptional. It's perfectly reasonable to suppose that a copy might in fact actually be better, in some instances, than a genuine work by the artists being copied. I have to say that a few Umetada Myoju and Hirata Hikozo tsuba offered for sale in recent years and that have evidently caused grown men to drool (and cough up huge amounts of cash to posses) strike me as either pretty empty copies themselves or very poor examples of those artists work. And I will claim a far more nuanced eye in this respect than most. it's not only a matter of taste.

 

Anyway, that's my Sunday morning sermon over.

[Marius]

Ford,

 

you are rightly warning against dismissing any tsuba as a copy and dismissing all copies as poor quality. My fault, I should have been more precise in my statement.

 

I believe, and it is only my opinion, that this particular tsuba is a copy of Higo work, and a copy of poor quality. I will be happy to elaborate on this statement, and, of course, I shall be delighted to have a discussion and to be proved wrong, if it comes to that. I am interested in learning and not in being right.

 

I hold good copies in high regard - I have a Nobuie utsushi by Norisuke. One of my best tsuba, which does not say much, of course

 

It is always a pleasure to discuss and to learn, so thanks for your input

 

PS: at least my avatar is not a copy, or so I hope :D

[Soshin]

It's somewhat ironic, David, that your avatar is , in my opinion, one of those 'copies' you and Mariusz so confidently reject. It's certainly not by any of the mainline masters as you suppose. Having had the piece in my care I found very little to commend it really. My point being, perhaps it would be wiser to wait 10 or 20 years before making such absolute statements as to what constitutes quality in this field.

 

 

Hi Ford H.,

 

If you were a minister at a church I would likely attend much more often. Point taken I will keep doing my study and research to help developing my eyes and refine my taste. I would go on to say that I have made some progress with help from you and other senior members of NMB. In regards to the tsuba as my avatar it is currently in Japan at the NBTHK for shinsa. I would be happy when I get the results good or bad as it will be an important part of my as well as the person who sold it to me learning process.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles0

[Marius]

At least this one has been priced about right

[Pete Klein]

How about this one?

http://page6.auctions.yahoo.co.jp/jp/auction/f122806472

[Brian]

Wow..that theme just gets worse and worse, and that bag starts to look more and more like rivetted steel plate :lol:

Compare the open top of the bag with the original one...it's like an art version of "broken telephone"

Copy of a copy of a ......

 

 

Brian

[Marius]

Again, here is the original 5th Jingo published in Ito's book.

[pcfarrar]

Another!

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/221233236890

[Brian]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that one that was sold on Yahoo by hibari6869 is the same one offered now by Zen Gallery?

Details and occasional bumps and scratches are the same.

 

Brian

[pcfarrar]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that one that was sold on Yahoo by hibari6869 is the same one offered now by Zen Gallery?

Details and occasional bumps and scratches are the same.

 

Yes I think so, must be where zen-gallery sources his items?

[Ian]

Another

 

http://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20790/l ... 26r1%3D593

 

Regards

[DirkO]

I thought it was widely known that Zen Gallery gets its stuff mainly on yahoo and resells it on eBay? Anyone following Yahoo and eBay can easily confirm this

[Soshin]

Hi,

 

Here is good old Zen Gallery up to the same old game: http://www.ebay.com/itm/221233236890?ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1423.l2649. Still wanting the tsuba in Ito's book that Mariusz K. posted and not anything I see online with this design.

[Brian]

David,

See 6 posts up.

 

Brian

[Soshin]

Hi Brian R.,

 

I see thank you. I think it is safe to say your image came from a Yahoo Japan auction. Next month I hope to see one of my tsuba get papered to the Jingo school at the NBTHK shinsa. :D

[Alex A]

Glad ive read this, last week i was watching 2 sets of menuki on ebay (zen gallery) glad i didnt bid. How do they keep there 100% feedback rating??

 

Alex.

[Brian]

Nothing wrong with what they are doing. They are either buying on Yahoo and selling for a profit on eBay, or selling on behalf of Yahoo Japan sellers.

Either way, nothing wrong with it at all.

It's not like those other sellers who are listing goods they don't own yet, and then buying it once they sell for a higher price.

Lots of Zen Galllery fans...although I tend to regard them as the new Po-Edo who sell stuff that looks flashy in pics, but is actually very mediocre.

Still...honest sellers for the main part.

 

Brian

[Alex A]

Oh, i thought from the title of this thread they where selling poor modern copies.

 

Alex.