advice on saya

[zentsuji2]

I have been fixing up my first sword and the saya was dented in 2 places.I filled the dent but although the sword fits nicely,it is marking the blade.The liner will not pull out to clean any grit or dirt ,due to the dents.Are there any ways of cleaning without liner removal ,i am in a mess as my blade is in polish and i dont want to scratch it.Grateful for any suggestions,thank you.ianb.

[cabowen]

One word: shirasaya....

[zentsuji2]

thanks chris,but i will have to save up,i am trying to make it a painless 1st project,i am learning the hard way that they probably never are.How much are shirasayas by the way,and thanks for your time.ianb.

[cabowen]

I think you can get one done in the US for $300 or so. What kind of blade is it? That should determine whether or not it is worth the expense.

[zentsuji2]

Its a star stamp by kanemoto,my learning sword has some sunagashi and ko itame grain,also a custom carved tsuka,it is a nicely balanced sword but has a couple of fine ware,i dont want to overpay ,it has been fun finding new contacts in england and i like the sword ,its all matching ,has nice mounts,but it already has a couple of scratches from trying it back into the scabbard,i was eager to see it all done and back together,i feel like a fool.ianb.

[Bruno]

I agree with Chris, shirasaya is the wiser option, with tsunagi for the gunto koshirae.

[ROKUJURO]

Ian,

 

if it were my project, I wood proceed as follows:

 

As I understand, it is a military metal SAYA with wooden liners. One could surely pull out the liners with the risk of destroying them if there is no other way. With a metall tool 'custom made' for this task, I would press out the dents in the SAYA. Then I would take some wood (if HINOKI is not available, some other acid-free wood like apple or cherry may be suitable) and make new liners.

 

I know that many NMB members will not like my recommendation, but that is the way I would choose if a low budget does not allow for SHIRA SAYA which would of course be the best option!

[Brian]

He said the wooden liners won't come out?

I would be tempted to take it to my nearest and best panebeater shop, who specialize in dent removal and ask if they have any dent pullers or something that would minimise the dent. Not too much to lose.

 

Brian

[Dr Fox]

Ian

Your problem with the dents removal, is it will have to be done from inside the saya, not a lot of room there, add also that the liners will be the first point of contact, these will surly crush, before enough pressure can be brought to bear on the dents.

In shotgun barrels we use a dent remover, which uses twin wedges in controlled manner, and removes dents, but as pointed out you don't have the luxury of space. A similar system of wedging could be employed on a smaller scale, but my fear then is that you could cause new damage to the liners, which in turn will be just waiting to score your blade!

For me that blade and saya have to become distant cousins, sorry its not helpful, but I believe when a saya is no longer a protector of a blade, then it is no longer a saya.

Denis.

[zentsuji2]

thanks for all your excellent suggestions,it is good to have many minds on a problem instead of one battered head.I am going to try and make a template of the blade,wrap it in cotton and see if it will clean any grit out with a bit of bandage and linseed oil wrapped around.If this doesnt work ,i cant separate them,its saving up for a shirasaya.Thanks for your suggestions ,still learning that these swords are like women beautiful,deadly,and costly!best regards to you all.ianb.

[drdata]

If you must clean (shira saya is best, a star stand is a nice genditio), then I would investigate use of a gun cleaning rod, say with a .22 tip and suitable cotton patch. Don't force it (their is a thin dimension), and use something mild like 90% rubbing alcohol (this will not harm the blade and should leave no residue), and then let dry for a few days before re-inserting the blade.

 

HTHs

[Bruno]

BTW Ian, may you post photos of your gendaito please?

[zentsuji2]

I cannot get good pictures bruno ,they would only show tang marks ,signatures,i always get back shine,another thing is the negative comments shown to members on poor polish ware etc has put me off,if i get better shots i will post them,it is not kiyokatsu standard but i like it,i will become a better photographer one day.ianb.

[ROKUJURO]

....I am going to try and make a template of the blade,wrap it in cotton and see if it will clean any grit out with a bit of bandage and linseed oil wrapped around......

Ian,

to preserve the function of the wooden liners (as of any wooden SAYA) I do not recommend the use of linseed oil as this will probably be soaked into the wood, harden and seal it so that moisture cannot evaporate. This is why you should never leave excess oil on the blade when storing in a SAYA.

 

My experience is that an old SAYA (or old liners) are difficult to clean unless they can be scraped inside to make a new surface. The cheapest functional way would still be new liners after the dent repair/removal, I think.

[zentsuji2]

thanks jean,it is only my second sword and the first i have had to fix up,i could try and remove the liners but the dents were more like creases,as if struck by a bayonet twice,i am new to the nihonto world,we learn by our mistakes,i have scratched the blade on one side ,i was eager to see how it looked,thanks for your advice on oil and allowing the wood to breathe,the scabbard has lovely mounts,and i feel the dents cannot be removed,i will try and ask freinds in the know,but the sword wont be going back into the saya,it will still display nice on a stand.Next time i am going to think before taking on a restoration.thank you all.ianb.

[ROKUJURO]

Ian,

 

there is a lot to read about Japanese swords - a whole new world is waiting for you!

 

Never think that something you cannot do could not be done! Japanese craftsmen are trained in their respective fields and they can do magic! The same applies to our specialists.

 

I understand you exitement, but please NEVER display a 'naked' sword! As you read about the subject you will learn that blades are stacked away unless they are needed for special occasions. KOSHIRAE with blades were sometimes displayed at court, but in private homes they often had a TSUNAGI (wooden blade replacement to hold the KOSHIRAE together) inside.

 

But take your time to enjoy and understand, stay with us at the NMB and learn a lot! It is a lifetime disease.....