Thoughts on possible period or maker?

[CurtisR]

Greetings all,

This Tsuba and Kozuka were found accompanied by their Wakizashi....the work in-hand is beautiful, and under a loupe it appears a very skilled artisan made them. The f/k are of that same quality, but all are unsigned - (althought the kosuka has it's entire blade inscripted with kanji and what appear to be writing similar to sanskrit. I once I get my macro lens, I will be able to provide much better photographs of the kozuka writing. The blade is signed and does not appear gimei.

 

I'd also be very curious if anyone recognizes the Kami on the Omote side...seems very familiar but can't find in my ref. books.Ah, and the thickness is 3mm, by the way.

 

I would humbly appreciate any comments or thoughts...

 

Cheers!

 

Curt R.

[John A Stuart]

Carrying a spear enveloped with flames, I believe is Bishamonten 毘沙門天 Not a Kami, but, a Buddhist king derived from the Hindu pantheon, Vaiśravaṇa. John

[Marius]

And on the kozuka we have Fukurokuju.

[Brian]

Some very fine fittings. there. I think they desperately need an expert such as Ford to look at them and see if they can be cleaned and restored a bit.

The kogatana will likely have a poem on it....most signatures on them pay homage to smiths and are gimei. Let's see. But your value here definitely lies in the fittings. Pity someone has scratched on a number again.

 

Brian

[Soshin]

Carrying a spear enveloped with flames, I believe is Bishamonten 毘沙門天 Not a Kami, but, a Buddhist king derived from the Hindu pantheon, Vaiśravaṇa. John

 

Hi Curt R.,

 

As John said above he is Bishamonten an alternative name for him is Tamonten (多聞天). He is a tenbu (天部) divine or celestial being mainly acting as guardian of Buddhism. Vaisravana is this name in Sanskrit.

In regards to the fitting themselves soft metal is not my focus therefore I will defer to more knowledgeable people that collect these type of tosogu.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Grey Doffin]

Did some fool actually scratch the # 130 into the tsuba?

Grey

[CurtisR]

Thanks to you all VERY much for the information on this one....it wold make sense with the inscription/writing on the kozuka that it would have a Hindu connection or "theme".

 

To Grey" Yes - and it made me sick to see it. I know it was acquired in that condition and the current owner didn't do it, but yes, some complete fool actually scratched the numbers in. fortunately he/she didn't use an electric etching gun, etc - they're pretty shallow - but still sad!! In addition, (probably) the same "Garage Smith" tried to sharpen the blade. It can be saved I think, but still pretty disgusting/amazing.

 

Would I be close to the mark that this might be shinshinto or Edo work? Still searching for the smith...work in progress....

 

Best,

 

Curt

[CurtisR]

One last question if I may....with the "130" scratched in the Tsuba, is it still acceptable to submit for Shinsa? I am planning on going to the SF show and would love to get this papered.

 

Best Rgeards,

 

Curtis R.

[Soshin]

Hi Curtis R.,

 

Please send it to Mr. Hastings to get the "130" removed. He lives in the USA and was trained by Ford Hallam who is discussed above. Here is a link to his website: http://www.taganearts.com/. I don't know how busy he is but I know from the talk of local collectors that he does good repair work on tosogu.

 

P.S. Sorry I just notice this on his website:

I am not currently accepting or discussing any new commissions.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[CurtisR]

Thanks Mr. Stiles,

 

I've seen Mr. Hastings' work...very beautiful and I can see Mr. Hallam's influences there. Perhaps later in the year he'll accept new work and we can get it done. I suspected it would be a problem in Shinsa (besides making it look even more amazing). Great idea though!

 

Cheers,

 

Curtis R.

[John A Stuart]

I do not think it should affect shinsa at all. It is an obvious flaw that does not inhibit appraisal. If I could I would get it fixed depending on what that would require and cost. John

[Marius]

shinshinto or Edo work?

 

Curt,

 

I don't want to be a bore, but "shinshinto" ("new new sword") means a sword made in the late Edo period.

 

"Edo" (sometimes also: "Tokugawa") means the time from 1596 (or 1600 or 1615) to 1867 (or 1868). See here:

http://world.choshuya.co.jp/era/index.htm

 

None of my business, but why would you want to submit an unsigned kodogu to shinsa? I am sure that people here on the NMB will come up with an attribution. I am not sure you have issaku (same maker, set) mounts here - could you show people the fuchi and kashira as well?

[CurtisR]

Thank you Mariusz ~ I believe them all to be by the same maker, but don't have great pics of the f/k at the moment, although I'll do that i detail this coming Friday and then post. As for "why submit?"...the fittings are on a Kanesada (nidai) wakizashi which - thanks to those in the know here - believe may paper well. I'm not the owner (although I may be one day if I'm crafty lol.

 

My thinking is that it both the fittings (or at least Tsuba) is papered, as well as the blade, it would add value in the long-run. Perhaps I'm mistaken but seems logical.

 

Photos of the f/k coming asap!

 

Cheers,

 

Curtis R.

[John A Stuart]

Hi Curtis, I like these fittings. I did not want to resurrect the thread about the sword itself, but, that is what I would want to have appraised. Who counseled you as to it being shoshin? I do not want to say it is not, but, when you really compare it to the nidai signatures there are major deficiencies. I did not compare it to the shodai oshigata. John

[Marius]

My thinking is that it both the fittings (or at least Tsuba) is papered, as well as the blade, it would add value in the long-run. Perhaps I'm mistaken but seems logical.

Curtis,

 

As for the fittings - if the maker is highly rated, I would say that a paper will greatly add to the value. If not (as I believe is the case here), the paper will not add any value.

 

As for the sword - a paper will always add value to a signed sword. But it is always more likely to get pink-slipped.

 

Looking forward to the f/k pics :-)

[CurtisR]

Thanks for your opinions on this one to both John & Mariusz - I was told here it was most likely Nidai, but do need to research the Oshigata further to be sure! I am new to many aspects of nihonto / tosogu collecting, especially in the area of shinsa. I think perhaps my best course would be to 1) research the oshigata of the mei to avoid the pink-slip, then 2) submit the blade, then 3) if the blade receives a good rating, THEN have the Tsuba repaired and submit next year.

 

I can't tell you how much I've learned just from this one post and thanks to you all!! I will post pics of the f/k as promised, this weekend and am very curious to see if my eye is correct that they are by the same maker.

 

Cheers (literally, as I'm having a glass after a long night of work ),

 

Curtis R.

[Ford Hallam]

I thought for a moment I was having a 'déjà vu' moment

 

And I thought the images on the first thread discussing this set were far better. You chaps really haven't been paying attention

 

http://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=14863

[CurtisR]

And there they are! But ill still re-photo them lol. Many thanks to Heretic & hopefully this will support my thought on "same maker"?

 

I do well with wildlife & pretty models but still learning how to photo swords & Tosogu!

 

Cheers again ~

 

Curt R.

[Jamie]

So you're trying to all this papered before you buy this blade?

[Ford Hallam]

Hi Curtis R.,

 

Please send it to Mr. Hastings to get the "130" removed. He lives in the USA and was trained by Ford Hallam who is discussed above. Here is a link to his website: http://www.taganearts.com/. I don't know how busy he is but I know from the talk of local collectors that he does good repair work on tosogu.

 

P.S. Sorry I just notice this on his website:

Quote:

I am not currently accepting or discussing any new commissions.

 

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

 

Hi David

 

while it's true that Patrick came to my studio ( about 7 years ago, I think ) and spent 3 weeks with me during which I showed him the basics of some techniques it would be a gross oversimplification to suggest that that constitutes a proper training. If I could impart everything I know in 3 weeks it would say much for my knowledge base, now would it? Patrick is a very competent artisan and has developed his own distinctive style but I don't think he'd be at all offended if I were to suggest that there are still aspects of the work, especially restoration work, that he has yet to delve into in any detail.

 

A full and thorough training in the classical tradition (which doesn't actually even touch on the restoration of older pieces at all) takes at least 7 years and probably longer to properly assimilate the values and aesthetics of the tradition.

 

I've have the pleasure of a number of students visit me to learn a little more to help them on their path but it would be misleading to regard any of them as being graduates of my studio. This is something they, themselves, are very much aware of so it's important that the wider community appreciate this and not have unrealistic expectations or place unreasonable demands on them.

[Soshin]

Hi Ford,

 

Thanks for the clarification and the additional information which is very helpful. I will make this important mental note. Do let us know if you ever get a chance to train someone completely to be the Nidai.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[sanjuro]

Ford.

 

Are you sure its not your wife thats looking for a younger you? On second thoughts probably not... One of you is enough even for the most tolerant woman. :D

 

Dammit! I wish Brian hadn't fiddled around with the time on this board. All the posts are coming out of order and will do for the next six hours or so.......

[Ford Hallam]

Cheers David

 

I hope I didn't sound too hard on the issue but the proper training of a kinko-shi/tsuba-shi is as complex and time consuming as that of a swordsmith or polisher. All of the same types of areas need to be thoroughly studied and internalised, the work of the past, schools, styles, aesthetics etc, the actual hand skills needed to do the work well takes time to develop as does a reliable eye, and the multitude of specific techniques take a lifetime and more to even begin to master.

 

A full apprenticeship is not for the faint hearted nor the dilettante. I'm still looking for someone, my wife says I'm looking for a younger me. Which means he/she will probably get right up my nose

 

regards,

 

Ford