Tsuba thoughts (school, period, quality?)

[lotus]

New to collecting and wondered your opinion (school, period, quality) on this one.

 

Thanks,

Patrick R.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Patrick,

Has this been abrasively cleaned or did it come this way?

The material is wanting us to believe it is shakudo. If it is it has been cleaned. Shakudo, which is supposed to be jet black, shows bright copper when abraded.

However, seeing how some details like the whiskers are showing bright copper while the black adjacent to them remains untouched I'm wondering if this might be a Chinese fake gussied up to fool the unsuspecting.

But I'm not sure. Anyone else care to take a shot?

Grey

[sanjuro]

Theres something not quite right about the dragon. The rendition of the head is not quite Japanese. He has two front sides except for the tail and ken which has a back and a front. in every other way the two sides are mirror images. the abraded shakudo doesnt look quite right and the brass of the mimi is too new looking. (New age, not just overcleaned). My guess would be a Chinese fake, but hey! What the hell do I know?

[lotus]

I do agree that something looks amiss with this piece. I say that after looking at a rather large amount of authentic pieces (a bunch with dragons). It just does not look right and it may very well be due to the cleaning done to it. Chinese fakes don't usually show this amount of discoloration and usually don't show much use where this piece does appear to be used. Unless it has been made to look that way to fool "us".

 

I found a few pieces this morning on the web that use the same motif and share the similar style. I am going to dig them up and post them as well as report back the schools they listed. Maybe it will help solve it.

 

Patrick R.

[lotus]

Thought I would post some close-up shots of this piece.

[John A Stuart]

A repro/copy I'm sure. John

[lotus]

By repro/copy, do you mean a chinese fake (recently made)?

 

Thanks,

Patrick R.

[John A Stuart]

Not necessarily Chinese. There are many sources for repro tsuba to mount on repro koshirae, some are very good and run everything in between. John

[Grey Doffin]

Yes; the closeups seal the deal for me. You can see that the black isn't shakudo but rather it is painted on. Repro/fake, doesn't make much difference; there isn't much value here.

Grey

[lotus]

The ebay seller who has the piece goes by the name zen-gallery and, I have been told he is a legit dealer based on other NMB member's input. Also, I have followed many of his latest sales and they all look authentic to me except for this one, of course. I messaged him because of my concern it was a reproduction. Here is his reply :

 

We don't think it is a reproduction. Carving is real, not cast. However we do not know the school.

 

I replied back about the black paint and am waiting to hear back from him.

 

Patrick R.

[kunitaro]

You can always ask the seller if they can guarantee the item will pass NBTHK Hozon shinsa.

[sanjuro]

Patrick.

 

I'm going to play Devil's advocate here. The more I look at this tsuba the less I am likely to believe it is not a repro. The seller claims that this is carved and not cast. Look in the dragons mouth and at his ears and all the places where there is a small concave surface. A chisel would leave fine transverse lines across the direction of the cut. These areas in the case of this tsuba have a granular surface. No chisel on earth leaves a granular surface. This makes me think it is cast and possibly cleaned up here and there with a chisel.

Now, look at the junction between the seppa dai and any part of the dragon that joins it, or the mimi and any place the dragon is attached to it. The same rounded junction and/or granular finish appears. A chisel leaves a sharp angle. Where the dragon's leg or foot is in the background ( the same leg on both sides yet), the same granular finish. Sculpted and chiselled figures have sharp definition between motif and seppa dai or motif and mimi. Background features are usually smooth not granulated.

The finish is contrived. Shakudo does not usually appear at the base of punched areas. The act of punching destroys the patina. So, this was either patinated painted or whatever after the punching around the nakago ana was done, or the whole thing was cast then artificially patinated.

 

Just my observations.

[Brian]

FWIW, I think it's real and late Edo period. Saw this from the seller...he has tons of stuff like this that is quite flash at first glance.

Just my opinion. I think it has been laquered or painted..but underneath that all I think it's real.

Then again, I have been wrong many times.

 

Brian

[lotus]

FWIW, I think it's real and late Edo period. Saw this from the seller...he has tons of stuff like this that is quite flash at first glance.

Just my opinion. I think it has been laquered or painted..but underneath that all I think it's real.

Then again, I have been wrong many times.

 

Brian

 

If it is real, do you think the laquer/paint could be removed safely? Just curious.

[Grey Doffin]

Hi Patrick,

Lacquer/paint can be removed without damaging the metal. But why bother? At best you'll have a 20th century tsuba in bright copper and at worst you'll have a messed up Chinese fake. Neither one is anything you should collect. Save your money while you study. Gain knowledge and dollars and then buy quality.

Grey

ps. Being flashy and on ebay this is sure to sell for way more than it is worth.

[sanjuro]

Well said Grey, it doesn't really matter which one of us is right, this tsuba is still not worth collecting.

[Ron STL]

I'd walk away from this one. Ron STL

[lotus]

Yep, too many issues. I am passing. I have learned a lot from this whole exercise and thank each and everyone of you.

 

Patrick R.

[Soshin]

Being flashy and on ebay this is sure to sell for way more than it is worth.

 

Hi Patrick,

 

Some true words of wisdom that I completely agree with. Some of the papered pieces zen-galley lists are nice but most things like this tsuba is an aesthetic nightmare and are for the export market.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles