chrisf Posted October 10, 2012 Report Posted October 10, 2012 Recently I've been going back over Mantetsu and Koa Isshin info but cannot resolve the following in my own mind,1937 sees the introduction of Mantetsu swords and from 1939 the usage of the Koa Isshin phrase but Mantetsu swords are still produced just as Mantetsu,so were both swords produced by the pipe welding technique or is there a material difference between them? Visually they look the same but are they? Quote
george trotter Posted October 13, 2012 Report Posted October 13, 2012 Hi Chris, I waited but no response...which means I guess that most of us Know little more than has been published on Ohmura san's "Military Swords of Japan" site (linked above) and in Slough....the simple answer is...don't know...maybe... I have owned 2 Koa Isshin and have seen several plain Mantetsu mei..., although the mei cutting seems the same to me, the plain Mantetsu "seemed" a lower grade work (but I haven't examined either one now for 25-30 years)...you'll just have to do research and report back with the results for the Mantetsuto collectors. Regards, Quote
chrisf Posted October 13, 2012 Author Report Posted October 13, 2012 Hello George, I've read and re-read but cannot find any explanation of what the difference might be,the blades look to be the same and there seems to be no difference in the way they were mounted,I've seen both types with pierced and solid tsuba,Koa Isshin mei always look well cut and I've seen Mantetsu that look slightly more 'chippy' but who knows?... Quote
truelotus Posted January 14, 2013 Report Posted January 14, 2013 hmmm ... I recently restored a koa isshin mantetsu blade ... found in bent condition, and chipped nakago ... which due to over corrosion from blood (I replace the tsuka, and found the wood in old ones drenched in dried blood) overall condition is nice, but will have to wait some time before I can post the pic Quote
Kai-Gunto Posted January 15, 2013 Report Posted January 15, 2013 hmmm ... I recently restored a koa isshin mantetsu blade ... found in bent condition, and chipped nakago ... which due to over corrosion from blood (I replace the tsuka, and found the wood in old ones drenched in dried blood) overall condition is nice, but will have to wait some time before I can post the pic Why do You think its blood? Quote
kaigunair Posted January 15, 2013 Report Posted January 15, 2013 Great question! Here's my theory: mantetsu steel was developed/marketed as a new type sword that could withstand the mainland winters. These swords were sold/issued to the troops as a better type sword for these conditions. Koa Isshin blades were probably made as a superior quality mantetsu blade. The phrase itself, Koa Isshin was a patriotic slogan underlying one of the reasons put forth for Japan's push into asia. So blades marked with this were probably made with more care than those merely marked mantetsu, being imbued with the imperial mandate to unify asia. Kinda like how most/all gendaito is made of tamahagane (mantetsu) but yasukuni and minatogawa blades are of superior quality (koa isshin). ....my $0.02... Quote
David Flynn Posted January 15, 2013 Report Posted January 15, 2013 Methinks you should study Gendaito a bit longer. Quote
kaigunair Posted January 15, 2013 Report Posted January 15, 2013 Methinks you should study Gendaito a bit longer. Agreed. I am open to correction especially if I misstated things so please feel free to post corrections, or send me via a pm. It would be much appreciated. Quote
kaigunair Posted January 16, 2013 Report Posted January 16, 2013 Well, since no additional info was fourth coming, I went and read up on koa isshin and mantetsu in the fuller and gregory books. The smaller doesn't have much info, but there is some more in the larger. According to fuller/gregory, the difference between the two is that koa isshin mantetsu blades were made in Japan while those marked only mantetsu were made in manchuria. The former was "superior" and the latter an "inferior grade". Not sure what the support or proof of that is, but there it is. They also explain koa isshin as a patriotic phrase meaning "single-mindly praying for the development of Asia". The more literal translation is "one heart" which is what I had been referring to, which is explained better at the stein website, link below. http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/koa.htm Stein notes that its possible that the use of mantetsu in koa isshin does not necessarily mean the same mantetsu steel but could mean a generic "foreign" steel. One last thing from fuller/gregory, they quote Han Bing Siong saying that koa-isshin might have been traditionally tempered since the metal could withstand the shock of water quenching. Hope this helps. Quote
kaigunair Posted January 16, 2013 Report Posted January 16, 2013 Also of interest is a translation of an informative books put out by the South Manchuria Railway Co,Ltd. Dalian Railway Factory Sword Works. It is labeled "Kōa Issin" and was published on July 25, 1939. (The english grammer is a little off in some parts): http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_149.htm Not sure if this will solve the question about koa isshin's made in Japan or for the yasukuni exhibition.... If any one has any additional references, web or paper, would be great to try to fill in the knowledge gaps of mantetsu/koa isshin/manchurian railway/yasukuni exhibition (at least in my head). Quote
cabowen Posted January 16, 2013 Report Posted January 16, 2013 Here is a photo of yaki-ire of a mantetsu-to. It appears to be water quenched... http://www.k3.dion.ne.jp/~j-gunto/gunto_057.htm Quote
Bruno Posted January 16, 2013 Report Posted January 16, 2013 If any one has any additional references, web or paper, would be great to try to fill in the knowledge gaps of mantetsu/koa isshin/manchurian railway/yasukuni exhibition (at least in my head). I think Kevin Jones (Ryujinswords.com) published an nice article on his website about Mantetsu-to. Quote
truelotus Posted February 27, 2013 Report Posted February 27, 2013 Why do You think its blood? well, this is according to me, and I may be wrong, but here it is 1st clue the previous owner - the grandson of the person who took it recollects his grandfather's story that the sword was taken in an execution field after killing the previous owner in a fight 2nd clue the blade is bent in lower part of monouchi and small chip on the bent position, showing at least the story above is correct - the blade has seen combat 3rd clue shape of the rust in cutting edge persistent with something flowing in it and not cleaned in quite a long time (blood) ? 4th clue the original ito has many dark spots - kinda like spots you encountered in tsuka of sword used in training (sweat spots), but much darker in several parts of the ito, it even seems like that the liquid (whatever it is) soaking in very deep 5th clue I dismantled the tsuka for restoration and found that the nakago is heavily rusted in several areas, consistent with pool of dried liquid collected inside the wooden tsuka, it is reddish black, and I assume it was blood 6th clue I cut small piece of the ito and look it on the microscope, and unless I am mistaken, I see red blood cells need luminol here ... regards Donny Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted February 27, 2013 Report Posted February 27, 2013 I am sorry but this is a load of humbug. 1st clue the previous owner - the grandson of the person who took it recollects his grandfather's story that the sword was taken in an execution field after killing the previous owner in a fight Just a story, no proof whatsoever and the story itself is more than fishy. 2nd clue the blade is bent in lower part of monouchi and small chip on the bent position, showing at least the story above is correct - the blade has seen combat Not indicative of combat at all, could as well have happened in some jungle, cutting a path. 3rd clueshape of the rust in cutting edge persistent with something flowing in it and not cleaned in quite a long time (blood) ? Not at all. Could have been laying in a puddle for a long time, or even have been in the sea. 4th cluethe original ito has many dark spots - kinda like spots you encountered in tsuka of sword used in training (sweat spots), but much darker in several parts of the ito, it even seems like that the liquid (whatever it is) soaking in very deep Could be any form of liquid/stains of use. 5th clueI dismantled the tsuka for restoration and found that the nakago is heavily rusted in several areas, consistent with pool of dried liquid collected inside the wooden tsuka, it is reddish black, and I assume it was blood Blood of a cut off head does not run into the tsuka that easily. That would mean the executioner would have cut through the neck and then held the blade upright for at least 5 minutes, and would not have cleaned the blade. A no go for someone experienced and knowledgeable of caring for a Japanese sword (Yes, the military did know how to care for their swords). 6th clueI cut small piece of the ito and look it on the microscope, and unless I am mistaken, I see red blood cells Thats silly. Why ? Well let me explain. How many people have carried and handled this sword throughout the last 70 odd years ? Probably a lot. Skin cells, body fat/grease all leave traces. Were you in any form of medical training ? If so, you might be able to discern several types of cells. Are they blood cells ? Not very likely. Blood cells degrade in a different way than skin cells. Want to have unequivocal proof ? Take it to a proper Forensics lab and have it properly examined. Will cost you a lot of money. KM Quote
Brian Posted February 27, 2013 Report Posted February 27, 2013 No..what's ridiculous is that you are discussing this. Makes no difference, and has no bearing on the sword. No more disussion on the "blood" issue, it is not tolerated here. Brian Quote
sanjuro Posted February 27, 2013 Report Posted February 27, 2013 What everyone in this discussion is ignoring is the plain fact that this sword in fact any comparatively modern sword, with a nakago in such a condition has literally no value whatever except possibly as an artifact of unknown provenance. The blade is bent with a chip at the point of the bend. In other words its overall condition as a blade is suspect. Mantetsu or not, its a battered gunto blade. Sorry but the world is full of them. Silly romanticism aside, what value or interest on any level is it supposed to represent? Quote
kaigunair Posted February 27, 2013 Report Posted February 27, 2013 What everyone in this discussion is ignoring is the plain fact that this sword in fact any comparatively modern sword, with a nakago in such a condition has literally no value whatever except possibly as an artifact of unknown provenance. The blade is bent with a chip at the point of the bend. In other words its overall condition as a blade is suspect. Mantetsu or not, its a battered gunto blade. Sorry but the world is full of them. Silly romanticism aside, what value or interest on any level is it supposed to represent? Agreed. I had tried to answer the original post earlier in the thread, I was suprised to see where this thread went. Left me wondering where the specific blade with the damaged nakago being discussed came from. The initial post was just about general info on mantetsu vs koa isshin. The specific blade was brought up during an example, which then move the focus from the original question to the unusual comments regarding the specific blade. But returning to the original question: the difference between mantetsu and koa isshin. Hopefully the info provided settles that...? Quote
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