Soshin Posted September 25, 2012 Report Share Posted September 25, 2012 Hi Everyone, I am looking for some refernces with examples of very early Namban tsuba of the Muromachi Period. These would be tsuba made in China and exported to Japan. This is for a comparative study. Let me know if you have any questions. Thank you very much. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docliss Posted September 26, 2012 Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 David Ogawa (1987) states that ‘those tsuba that are today called Namban appear to have been produced in China or by the Dutch East India Company in India and imported from the end of the 16th century.’ Thus Momoyama, rather than Muromachi, is an appropriate period for such early Namban examples. Judging by the timing of this thread, I presume that you are the fortunate new owner of Grey Doffin’s H 283? This is a very interesting tsuba that has all the appearances of an early example of the group. These are extremely rare; I have personally never seen one, and in 1998 Kitamura Yoshiro admitted to me that there were no such examples in the collection of the Namban Bunka-kan in Osaka shi. What a pity that this tsuba is not ubu, the kōgai-hitsu being an obvious later modification. Early descriptions of such Momoyama tsuba are very unsatisfactory. Joly (1914) describes them as having ‘a purely Chinese design with symmetrical components’, thus equating them with Kantō tsuba with their origin in Eastern China. Interestingly, he illustrates one example ‘avec capsules destinées à recevoir des émaux ou des pierres’. Are the circular apertures in your tsuba intended for a similar function? A single tsuba, 695’30, is described on p.114 and illustrated on p.XXI of the City of Birmingham Catalogue. This is dated to the 17th century, and also has a dote mimi. I hope that this rather limited information is of some help. John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christianmalterre Posted September 26, 2012 Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 Those "circular apertures" do most probably have this idea or functionality... I do know of two Tsuba here in private collection who do bear some coral or polished stone-"diamonds" inside. Both are an little smaller-the one spoken by the S.H. collection is wider in size and it´s mimi is executed differently than those both in German possession. Christian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted September 26, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 Hi John L., You are correct I am the new owner of that tsuba. It is currently in route which is why I was not discussing it directly. My original source of information was Tsuba An Aesthetic Study which discuses the original Namban having a date circa 1500 and being made in southeastern China and imported to Japan. I was thinking this trade in original Kanton Namban tsuba were part of the increased trade between the Ashikage Shogun and mainland China. The trade facilitated by the Portuguese would have taken place during the early part of Momoyama Period. The Dutch and their East Indies Company and the English would have been late Momoyama to the early part of the Edo Period with their trade. Thanks for the additional information and references. In regards to kozuka-hitsu ana I agree it is not original to the tsuba likely added in the early part of the Edo Period. With that said the plugging of it looks to be very nicely done likely in the late Edo Period when tsuba were again being made without kogai or kozuka hitsu ana. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Wilson Posted September 26, 2012 Report Share Posted September 26, 2012 I was thinking this trade in original Kanton Namban tsuba were part of the increased trade between the Ashikage Shogun and mainland China. It could have been, but I wonder if the Japanese at time felt they needed tsuba imported from the Chinese? After all the Ashikaga trade swords to the Chinese, I can't imagine them wanting tsuba, as the techology at that time was well developed. I think the Ashikaga were more interested in silk and coins. Just some thoughts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted September 27, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 27, 2012 Hi Henry, I now have the tsuba in hand as it came in the mail this afternoon. Looking more at the tsuba in hand its designs are remarkable and the patina and quality of the iron is just wonderful. The very detail scroll work remind me of Arabesque seen in classical art of southern Europe of Portuguese or Spanish influence. Not much of a southern Chinese influence in the design of this tsuba. This European influence would indicate the early part of the Azuchi-Momoyama Period as the age of the tsuba having the Portuguese visiting Japan first in 1543 and the Spanish in 1584. The remains of gold inlays along the rim also gives the tsuba an even more antique appearance. Reading Skip's note about the tsuba it says "Namban, Christian Cross, Momoyama Period". Does anyone else see a Christian Cross? The cross might be in the placement of the four rings around the nakago-ana. Christian M. gave me a copy of a old article about Namban culture during the Momoyama Period. I will find it and read it. Here is some information I came across from NBTHK monthly magazine by Fukushi sensei in issue #646 about Namban tsuba. With the term "nanban", the disregard and degradation towards the tribes of the Chinese and South Asian mainland was expressed in older times (i.e. about the end of the Muromachi Period), because it means literally "southern barbarians". Nanban-tsuba were firstly made in the eastern and southern regions of China (Kanto) and exported to Japan. Consequently they were also called kanto-tsuba or kan'nan tsuba. Later there was Japan's one and only foreign trade port established in Nagasaki, and this was where the European trading vessels, the Nanban-sen arrived. A Christian Nanban-ji was erected, European paintings (nanban'e), iron (nanban-tetsu), pipes (nanban-kiseru), European alloy and smelting methods (nanban-shibori), European sweets (nanban-kashi) and so on were imported, the latter by the way are still sold in Japan. The European steel find its way into Japanese swords, a fact we can understand via signatures like "Nanban-tetsu o motte kore o kitae" (made of barbarian steel). The origin of Nanban-tsuba was probably a fusion of the parry elements of the swords of Dutch or English officers, oriented on the kanto-respectively kan'nan-tsuba, and they were produced in Nagasaki. I will try to take some photos of the tsuba over the weekend when I have some free time. Take care and thanks for reading. :D Yours truly, David Stiles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docliss Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 David, you mention ‘remains of gold inlay’ on the rim of your new Namban tsuba, and I am anxious to know its type. Am I correct in assuming it to be nunome-zōgan or is it, by any chance, yakitsuke? John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted September 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Hi John L., The worn off gold inlays is I think of the nunome-zogan type but I don't remember seeing the checkerboard cross hatching of the iron plate near the gold inlays. The inlays were present on the rim and along some parts of the scroll work. I am not familiar with the other inlay type that you listed. What does it look like? After work I take another look at the tsuba. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docliss Posted September 28, 2012 Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Thank you, David for that. Yakitsuke (mercuric- or fire-gilding) results in a featureless, raised area of gilding that appears to be relatively resistant both to wear and to underlying rust. It is achieved by the application of heat to an amalgam of mercury and gold, and is a relatively unskilled – if extremely toxic – method of gold application. It can be distinguished from nunome-zōgan by the absence of hatching at its margins. John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted September 28, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 28, 2012 Hi John L., I noticed that Grey Doffin referred to the gold inlay as nunome on this description of the tsuba on his website. After looking at the tsuba with a hand magnifying glass. The gold inlay type is clearly nunome-zogan the crosshatching is light but apparent specificity along the edge of the dote-mimi style rim. The small amount of gold that remains looks like bright flakes of gold along a rich dark background of the iron's patina. I hope to be able to post some of my own photographs of the tsuba tomorrow. Take care everyone and have a wonderful weekend. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted September 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2012 Hi Everyone, Here is the photo I did of the omote side of my new Azuchi-Momoyama Period Namban tsuba this afternoon. The measurements of the tsuba are 8.0 cm by 7.3 cm. The dote-mimi style rim has a thick at 4.0 mm. I also did more reading and have uncovered some additional informaiton about early Namban workmanship from the writings of Fukushi sensei in Token-bijutsu No. 646. They are mostly of large dimensions, of iron, have a mokko- or maru-gata, and shows fine, three-dimensional sukashi in the form of a karakusa pattern with dragons, animals, or persons. The seppa-dai has an unusual shape and most are small and rectangular. Comments and questions for discussion are welcome. Thanks for reading. :D Yours truly, David Stiles 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curran Posted September 29, 2012 Report Share Posted September 29, 2012 David, I've been waiting for your photos. Thanks for posting that one. Are you able to post a side photo showing the thickness of the tsuba at the nakago ana and the cutting? This one appears thinner and larger than most I have seen. It will be interesting to hear what Dr. L sees. I'll give my own opinion when I've had time to read and think on it a bit more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted September 29, 2012 Author Report Share Posted September 29, 2012 Hi Curren, Here is another photo I did upon request with my camera in hand without setting up the tripod, head, and base and setting the tsuba box on the dinner table. The thickness at the seppa-dai is 3.0 mm and the area of the plate consisting of the scroll work (i.e. arabesque) design between the seppa-dai and rim is looks thinner I would say from looking at it approximately 2.5 mm. I hope you find this additonal photo helpful. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docliss Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Curran Although I have never previously seen one, I am fairly confident in my attribution of David’s tsuba as Namban of the Momoyama period. I do not subscribe to his Azuchi-Momoyama label since there is no justification for drawing a line at 1603 on the importation of these tsuba into Japan. My reasons for this attribution are as follows: • The dote mimi – a form seldom seen on later tsuba of this group. • The polishes surface of the mimi, which may simply be the result of many years of handling. • The very fine, delicate nature of the karakusa-moyo. • The rather bizarre and impractical form of the seppa-dai. • The unusually large size: most tsuba of this group measure 7.2 cm – 7.0 cm. • The absence of original hitsu-ana. I wonder if the inclusion of shibeyama features was a common practice on these tsuba – it was certainly very rapidly discontinued. I would like to know how many of these tsuba Fukushi sensei saw before writing his description. This is not unlike the seriously flawed one of Hancock (undated) in the Catalogue of the Birmingham City Museum and Art Gallery: ‘A learned Japanese writer suggests that the earliest [Nanban tsuba] dated from the 17th century, and he recognises as early Namban only those pieces that present a certain mokkō shape, peculiar edge, hornless dragons and European characters.’ John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted October 1, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 I would like to know how many of these tsuba Fukushi sensei saw before writing his description. This is not unlike the seriously flawed one of Hancock (undated) in the Catalogue of the Birmingham City Museum and Art Gallery: ‘A learned Japanese writer suggests that the earliest [Nanban tsuba] dated from the 17th century, and he recognises as early Namban only those pieces that present a certain mokkō shape, peculiar edge, hornless dragons and European characters.’ John L. Hi John L., Here is a scan of two tsuba considered to be early Namban in the Token Bijutsu article in issue #646 which I have quoted Fukushi sensei. Who is only human and can't be a expert in all schools of tosogu. How early isn't completely sure as the descriptions of both tsuba do not directly discuss their age. The one in the upper part of the page I really like. In the description it discusses abraded zogan which is similar to what I see on my tsuba. Both examples I think have a feel of not being as old as my tsuba but I can't confirm this from looking at photographs alone. On a related note I was sent a private messaged today by a long time and distinguished collector of tosogu congratulating me on what he considers to be a fine acquisition. He also goes on to agree with John L. attribution of my tsuba as a fine rare Momoyama Period Namban tsuba. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curran Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Dr. L and David, John, thank you for that write up. There isn't much more to say other than that I concur. You're a tough act to follow. David, I would advise you don't let go of this tsuba lightly: even if your interests change to other areas. Many people might dismiss it as 'another Namban' and underestimate its value. I am not saying it is a National Treasure, but that it is a fine piece: interesting and rare. Think thrice about ever selling it. If not inconvenient, please bring it to Tampa. _____________________________________ PS. Edit: I think I have seen another of these once before, but the arabesque was rusted through in a point or two with damage making it unappealing. Yours is in much better shape. The kogai ana was added with a fair aesthetic. Flipping through Yoshimura-san's Namban Tsuba book, there are some interesting ones in there including one as large as 9cm and another with a man w/ wings that looks surprisingly like a childish version western rendering of angels, but none that seem as old to me as yours. Close, but not quite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Wilson Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Congratulations David. For what it is worth, I too think it is a nice tsuba. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docliss Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 I fear that Fukushi sensei's 'abraded zogan' comment doesn't help very much: Abrade - to wear down or off - Latin radere to scrape. Very many tsuba have abraded zogan. John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sage Posted October 1, 2012 Report Share Posted October 1, 2012 Any chance the rim is an iron fukurin? The seam there looks very similiar to the one discussed here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=4704 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted October 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Hi Curren, No problem I can bring the tsuba to the Florida Show next February for you and anyone else to have a look at. I enjoy playing show and tell. I would consider this tsuba a keeper for my collection. I don't see my tastes changing all that much in terms of tosogu. Next year I will likely submit it to NBTHK shinsa as It is one of the best tsuba in my collection and is likely my best chance for my first Tokubetsu Hozon papered tsuba. Did some searching on the Internet last night and found the following early examples of Namban work from a Japanese dealer's website. 1. http://www.finesword.co.jp/sale/kodougu/htm/1051_2000/1351_1400/1390/k1390.htm Comments: This tsuba is without shinsa paper. The dealer thinks this tsuba dates to the early Edo Period. The circular holes are filled with mother-of-pearl (Jp. Raden). Notice the large size of this tsuba over 8.0 cm. I think this is characteristic of many early Namban tsuba. 2. http://www.finesword.co.jp/sale/kodougu/htm/1051_2000/1451_1500/1475/k1475.htm Comments: This tsuba is also without shinsa paper. The dealer thinks this tsuba dates to Momoyama Period. Looking at it it looks much younger then my tsuba in terms of the iron and the condition of the inlays. The ryo hitsu-ana doesn't look like they were added all that well. The large size of this tsuba also would indicate a earlier production. Hi Sage, The dote-mimi style can be created by either a turning back of the iron of the rim or the addition of another piece of iron of identical type. The second type of dote-mimi can also be considered a iron fukurin. For my tsuba it looks like the dote-mimi was made by another piece of iron of identical type making it also a iron fukurin. The iron fukurin in my case is original. Hi Everyone, After considering all of the elements of the design on the tsuba I think it was likely a early Christian Cross the design was likely accented with gems as John L. has suggested. Later in the Edo Period the gems were removed and the kozuka hitsu-ana was added and cross design was disrupted. This was likely during the rule of the third Tokugawa Shogun when Christianity was seriously suppressed. Below is a link to a Google images search for "early Christian Cross". Discussion and feedback about my hypothesis is always welcome. I am on vacation this week so I will have time discuss. :D http://www.google.com/search?q=early+Christian+Cross&hl=en&prmd=imvns&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ei=PQNrUMDwDMaG0QHo94HQBg&ved=0CDUQsAQ&biw=1366&bih=681 Yours truly, David Stiles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sage Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Thanks for the clarification on dote-mimi. I had been confused by some of the definitions floating around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
docliss Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 David Why do collectors of Japanese sword furniture persist in the identification of imaginary Christian symbolism in any artefact that has a vaguely cruciform decoration? John L. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Wilson Posted October 2, 2012 Report Share Posted October 2, 2012 Responding to John L's post and not wanting to hi-jack the thread: On the other hand, I have always wondered why people are quick to contradict someones opinion and say that a symbol is not Christian. To my eye a lot of the time, these so called symbols could be Christian... in as much as they could not be Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted October 3, 2012 Author Report Share Posted October 3, 2012 Hi John L. and Henry W., Relax my hypothesis about the Christian cross design isn't even testable and it isn't a big deal. I often see copied western designs done in European influenced Namban tsuba. Many of these copied designs are not identical to European original and have a fair amount of stylistic or nonsensical changes to them. One of my favorite is the nonsensical Indo-Arabic numbers and Roman letters across the bottom of some Namban tsuba. To me they almost look like very imaginative serial numbers. :lol: The Japanese artist likely making my tsuba might have seen a Christian Cross on the fabric or clothes of visiting Portuguese or Spanish or among other imported European art (Namban-e) and just incorporated the design into the Namban tsuba he was making. Likely thinking that having such a cool European style symbol would be nice for a Namban tsuba. None of these ideas are testable but in my opinion but still fun to think about. Yours truly, David Stiles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted September 23, 2013 Author Report Share Posted September 23, 2013 Hi Everyone, I pass this tsuba on to Bob Benson for NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa submission in October. Will keep everyone updated what I learn. I am interested in what they say about the openwork design. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soshin Posted January 1, 2014 Author Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 Hi Everyone, Akemashite Omedeto Gozaimasu! Happy New Year! I have been staying away from NMB until the new year. This tsuba made it to Japan for the NBTHK Tokubetsu Hozon shinsa in October 2013. Bob Benson emailed me the results yesterday. I hope to pick up the tsuba at the Tampa show next month. Can I please have a drum roll before I announce the results...? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curran Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 drum roll... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter Bleed Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 Tellll us, please Peter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Akitombo Posted January 1, 2014 Report Share Posted January 1, 2014 Come on David, my turkey sandwich is getting cold......................... David.N 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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