sanjuro

Seriously??????

Eric. A bit of deductive reasoning, so I may be wrong. Like most theories, this one is open to being disproved. 1. The presence of two mekugi ana, the top one being more aligned for a katana mounting and the bottom one being more typical of the placement of a tachi mekugi ana. This suggests the blade was at one time mounted as a katana or a daito. The proximity of these to one another also suggests the blade has not been shortened, which is born out by the nakago being ubu, but rather had its machi moved slightly up the blade. Were talking perhaps less than half an inch here. The hamon is more tired and thinner than one would expect in a newer blade, hence it has had more than one polishing and possibly a few more. The hamachi becomes shallow when polishing is repeated and a togishi may file a new hamachi which would have moved the hamachi up the blade possibly only a fraction of an inch, but its still machi okuri. The polished part of the habaki moto is also a fraction longer than it usually appears which would be consistent with my theory. At a guess, I would say the original machi were about level with where the start of the polishers marks are now seen. The mune machi and the habaki moto adjacent to it has a sharper cleaner edge to it and what appears to be file marks. Again this would be consistent with machi okuri. The hamon runs on into the habaki moto a short way beyond the ha machi and that didnt usually appear on koto blades. The nakago is long yes, but not unusually long for a tachi. It is however a dead giveaway along with the curvatureof the nakago and the mei location that this blade was originally a tachi. Katana usually have markedly shorter nakago than tachi. Do you own this blade???? If you do, I'll be over to wherever you live. We can get drunk, see who can tell the biggest lies and I'll steal it from you. :D

A question for the tosogu board: Has anyone seen menuki carved 'in the round'? That is to say on both back and front sides like a small sculpture? if so, what name are they known by and what time frame did they occupy in the tosogu time line?

Great sugata! Despite this appears to have been altered slightly by machi okuri, Possibly to restore its ha machi, lost through polishing, it has all the earmarks of a tachi. The sori, the long nakago and also the pronounced curvature of the nakago itself all point to its origins as a tachi. Bizen Den Sengoku Jidai perhaps? Hard to tell on a single look out of hand. And of course I may be totally wrong, in which case someone is going to point it out very soon. :lol:

Simon. To be honest I dont know if patina would be destroyed by thinners. I would think not, but one can always try a small area on the rim or better still with a cotton bud on the inside of the nakago ana if there is doubt. At the end of the day its your call and its always better to leave alone or get some professional help if in doubt. But that gold paint or lacquer is really offensive....... it may be worth the risk if the tsuba is worth the restoration process. In that regard however, where estimates of age school and relative rarity are at issue, I claim no expertise.

Its already been stated quite well by Chris and subsequently contested by others . Why would I want to repeat all that has gone before merely for the sake of confrontation? Read back on this thread and the other related threads referred to within it.

Alex That is not what I said, that is your crude interpretation of what I said. Then you dont see very far do you? I'm not even going to pull your assertions apart, they are to say the least overly imaginitive, and therefore not worthy of challenge. Hasnt this run its course yet to arrive at the inevitable 'agreeing to disagree' culmination? What about the original question posed in this thread??????

Oh dear....... Damned if you do and damned if you dont type of situation. If its worth cleaning up, then perhaps thinners for the paint coating? alcohol alone will clean the crud off and I would give that a try first merely because it often solves this kind of problem but is dependent on what kind of paint or lacquer is on there. Whatever you use it cannot be an abrasive. Any attempt to remove the paint/lacquer other than by chemical solvent means, will ruin any patina that (hopefully) lies beneath.

Alex What part of what I said dont you understand? Given the context of Chris's post concerning his proposed cutting test and my agreement with him, I would have thought my meaning was quite evident. If it is my choice of term 'Moderately good blade', then it would fall into a category somewhat less than a masterpiece. My own shinsakuto is a moderately good (serviceable) blade. I guess serviceable is the operative term here. It has no kisu, kitae ware, cuts well, handles well etc, but is not by a big name modern smith. If 'resist' is puzzling you, then substitute the word 'withstand' as in the case of a cut made by the subject sword directed against the tsuba-like object in question.

And probably although not necessarily, a trip to the togishi. :D I cant help but agree with Chris here. Soft metal tsuba do not and cannot substantially resist a moderately good blade in the hands of an experienced/trained swordsman. It is easily demonstrable. Forged iron rules in that regard. We are then left only with the hypothesis that soft metal tsuba are primarily art, and sometimes where they are clearly not intended for mounting, art for art's sake. And yes, some of them are quite beautiful to behold, but not to rely upon for any meaningful functionality. Now, what was the original question?????? whatever it was, it has not yet been answered.

Now correct me if I am wrong but it seems from the preceding discussion, that art aside, the functionality of a blade is to cut and all nihonto modern or otherwise do that, so they are by definition functional. In the case of the tsuba however we are still bickering about what the functionality really was and does a pretty picture on it alter that functionality in any way? (assuming that we eventually establish the truth or otherwise of that functionality). Is that about where we are at in this 'total losing of the plot' discussion of the moment?????? :D The purpose and functionality of tsuba has been argued to death before, with no convincing resolution. Nor will it be resolved on this forum. Moreso because the entire topic seems to have devolved into a discussion between the supporters of the Ford Hallam (pure art society) on one side and the less emotive hence more realistic reasoning of Chris Bowen on the other. Most of us would fall somewhere between the two with various biases according to the individual. For myself, I tend more toward Chris's reasoning. The tsuba had a purpose other than decoration. We do not know exactly what that was, but it was a functional component of the sword otherwise why put it on an otherwise utilitarian common plain iron mounted weapon meant for low level warriors? Is it art? It certainly has become art and is made by other than Japanese craftsmen. Would I collect or consider collectable anything that was not made by a Japanese craftsman or after swords fell out of use in Japan? No I would not. As a martial artist I would and do use a shinsakuto both made and mounted by Japanese craftsmen in Japan, but I do not consider it or its mounts collectable. In this I am for whatever reasons I may have, probably fairly typical.

Nice piece! More of a curio rather than a serious piece of tosogu but very charming. Ivory sword furniture is not usually seen in quantity because ivory does not react well to stress. This kozuka for instance, if mounted with a kogatana would ultimately split open because of the sustained (yet light) pressure from the nakago being a friction fit within it. (if you own this piece please dont mount it with a kogatana blade). They were given as gifts... a mark of esteem and wealth to honoured recipients. There is an ivory tanto tsuba illustrated in BW Robinson's book 'Arts of the Japanese Sword" Plate 47. Like this and your example, All that I have encountered have been exquisitely carved and I think therein lies their value. Wood and Tortoiseshell examples of kozuka and tsuba were also made during the Edo and Meiji periods. There was a thread on this forum in which ivory and bone tosogu were discussed. (sorry, I cant locate it at the moment) The various qualities of bone and ivory were explored if my memory serves me.

Hi Edward. Not wishing to be a wet blanket here, but in reality I think this can only be classified as an aikuchi. Yoroi toshi belong to an earlier age than shinto and whilst this is a fairly thick by comparison blade there is little if anything to identify it as a yoroi toshi blade. On the upside, its appears to be a good blade for an aikuchi and the koshirae looks to be original. It is on first impression, a nice clean shinto example. By way of compensation, yoroi toshi are not common to the shinto era, whereas aikuchi are far more common. Older yoroi toshi are thicker and have a much longer turnback of the ha, sometimes as long as 2inches, and in most cases have a distinctive fully tempered (ichi mai) boshi of either shobu zukuri or even moroha zukuri style. Hira zukuri is not unkown but would definitely be in the minority as the point would be somewhat weaker than the aforementioned types for stabbing through armour.

Lingonberry. Since we seem to have been led astray by the original question either intentionally or otherwise, and the current direction of the thread is more about who to trust when buying a beginners blade rather than what constitutes a good beginners blade; Then may I suggest that instead of trusting entirely in either a dealer or a togishi who is acting as a dealer, then the best course of action is to become knowledgeable enough to select your own blade from what is available. Who knows better your own preferences than you? Who better to select your sword than you? All that is required to select the perfect blade for you is some knowledge. If you are as widely read as you say and ten years in experience then you should be able to select a blade for yourself. There is no answer to your original question as asked. The definition of a good beginners blade is different for each individual according to exactly where they are 'beginning' from.

There is nothing but nothing, to study in a flawed blade, unless it belongs to someone else. Buying a flawed blade is like taking up residence in a mosquito swamp so that you can experience the effects of Malaria! :D You may discover a great truth, but it will cost you........... big time! :lol:

I feel sort of obliged to stick my two cents worth in here. Firstly I dont think that we should advise any one to buy a sword on the basis of having seen only photographs. Moreso since this is a beginners sword. Regardless of how many apparently good reason there are to consider the sword in question, that judgement is based only on what a seller is allowing us to see in photographs, not necessarily all of what is there when the sword is in hand. No beginner, contemplating his first sword or one of his first swords should even consider a sword that is not 'live' in the hand, at least not in my opinion. Without a great deal of knowledge, and even with that knowledge, a first sword bought from photographs is an extreme risk. I'm concerned that someone should even consider buying a first reasonable quality sword on ebay at all. It is a market place that is frought with risk at best, and with potential fraud at worst. This may sound somewhat utopian to some, but there are better alternatives. Contact with a reputable dealer, describing exactly what one can afford and what one requires would probably be a better option. There are good dealers out there who will help if asked, and who will be honest about there wares. They have a reputation to uphold and a beginner is someone who, if well and fairly treated will return to buy other swords in the long run. Just an opinion.....................

Hi Adam. Well you certainly seem to have developed all the right instincts prior to buying a first sword. Is there such a thing as a good beginners sword? Yes, but even with all the initial reading and a fair idea of what you should be looking for, it is still advisable to take along a trusted and knowledgeable person to your first purchase. Guys at the sword clubs such as already suggested are usually willing to advise guide and refer you to reliable places to buy swords. Most of them will remember how difficult a first purchase can be and will be sympathetic. :D

Very much a fatal flaw I'm afraid. Read as 'terminal'. This blade also has a few? other problems many of which are forging flaws, despite the fact that the seller describes it as in good condition and solid.

What makes you think that tanto were worn edge downward? Tanto were worn in the obi edge uppermost and the Kozuka hitsu ana would be closest to the body. Of all Nihonto only a Tachi is worn edge downward and is mounted to facilitate that method of wearing.

Strange.... The army I was in called Non Commissioned Officers NCO's. Things must be different in Florida. This looks more like a jeep spring sword. :D

I'm sorry Chris you may be the expert but I beg to differ here. The mei looks as if it were cut with an electric engraver because there are no discernible chisel marks and the angles of the sides of the lines are not equal as they should be when made with a chisel. The rounded cuts are more angled like kebori. They also have a wavy appearance on the sides of the indentations that look characteristically like lines cut with a rotary tool rather than a static strike or drifted series of chisel strikes. The edges of the cuts are also raised such as you get with a burr and are too sharp to be even twenty years old much less as old as seventy, and the base of the cuts are rounded in some cases rather than v shaped as from a chisel. These observations are made as an ex jeweller who has seen a great deal of engraved work done by rotary burr. Did I mention that they are also too clean and bright to be the same age as the nakago? To me the blade appears to be a Chinese fake which has had a signature added somewhat later than its date of manufacture (like very recently) and has been partially mechanically sharpened at some stage. As to value.... equal to or less than equivalent weight in scrap iron. Just my humble opinion. Having said as much I stand to be corrected if I am in error.

For what it is worth, I have always found that true to what has already been said, differences in the colour of steels is most pronounced when done in comparison with another blade. However, one might more easily discern it in daylight rather than in an artificial light. The darker colours of koto steel are best seen in daylight as they were first noticed hundreds of years ago. Whereas the activity in a blade is invariably more evident in an artificial light. Most daylight (and it varies from country to country) is relatively blue compared to the yellower nature or whiter nature of artificial light. Koto steel is generally more grey than Shinto steel.

OK.. I'm seeing a dragon chasing a tama in this blade........ Quite stylised but definitely there as if seen in a cloud.... :D Does this mean I need to cut back on the meds?????

On the subject of theories concerning this specific subject, Guido makes the comment.

off the wall - out of nowhere theories aside, I have a parallel question that bears on the original post. If it was considered common practice to sign your work for shinto smiths, Why are there so many gimei examples from this period? for a sword to be gimei it would need to have been mumei to begin with so that someone could add a spurious signature or, it would have required an existing signature to be removed so that a spurious one could be substituted. The process if not difficult would be time consuming on a sword of lower quality to have a more illustrious signature added and pointless if the sword were high quality to have a lesser signature added.