reinhard

The tsuba in question reminds me of one in the Compton collection made of silver. reinhard

Moses came down and I'm shaking in my shoes. reinhard

John, finding a ....roku nengo with enough years to fit in, is a somewhat ....unorthodox way to evaluate a smith. A mei: "Bishu Osafune SUKESADA", dating from Genroku period, written like that, is highly unlikely. The sword was sold as gimei, probably for good reasons. I guess we should leave it at that. reinhard

Cliff, This nick is no serious problem. Regular sword-care, including light oiling, will remove the newer rust from this spot and seal it up. reinhard

Mark, The mei is in all probability gimei. Shodai YASUMITSU, working during Oei era in Bizen, signed his blades either with a nijimei of his name or "Bishu Osafune YASUMITSU", sometimes including his title "Uemon-no-Jo", but he never omitted "Osafune". The mei "Bishu (no) Ju YASUMITSU" (mei on your sword) is highly untrustworthy. To some extent, this is true for his successors as well, working during Muromachi period. Other details pointing towards gimei are its overall writing style and minor details like the first stroke of the kanji "YASU" pointing towards wrong direction. No expertise, of course, but personally I wouldn't bet anything on this mei. reinhard

Is this "we" talk a kind of "majestic attitude"? I'm Swiss and hearing from nobilities makes me think of heads on poles. reinhard

Ted, Meikan lists two TSUNASHIGE in Sagami. One was working around Tenbun- and the other around Eiroku-era. reinhard

True, but this goes for important "customers" of NBTHK as well. On NBTHK or on Tanzan? I don't agree. Especially when it comes to mumei blades. Early Hon'ami appraisers saw many swords in a healthier and more "honest" condition than we see them nowadays. This goes for Kanzan and Kunzan as well to some extent. It is stunning to see, how mediocre blades, improved by newer polishing techniques, recently gained Juyo papers and appear to be masterpieces, all of a sudden and spectacularly healthy, neglected and overlooked during the last 400 years before. Tanzan is widely accepted to be the best for Kanteisho NOWADAYS, even by his critics. Wether he surpassed his teacher(s) or not, I don't dare to say. I don't agree. There have been made strange attributions to Yamashiro Rai-school recently. There are others, whose word and knowledge really counts. This is too simple an argument. - Being a member of NBTHK for some years now and usually defending them, you put me into the role of "advocatus diaboli". I don't know yet, if I like the part, but the discussion is overdue. reinhard

This statement should be taken with reserve. Early attributions made by Hon'ami masters during Momoyama and early Edo-period are of supreme quality. These attributions were usually given to blades after painstaking research and free from favouritism. Attributions given by Kotoku, Kojo or Kochu can greatly add to the value of a blade. - However, during later Edo- and early Meiji-period, Hon'ami family got into trouble and sometimes issued origami/kinpun-mei/kin-zogan mei as favours to Daimyo-families in order to make a living. These origami/kinpun-mei/kin-zogan mei are not always reliable and sometimes confusing. Hon'ami Nishu was a post-war expert polisher of extra-class and probably more independent, than most of his predecessors during late 19th/early 20th century. His (rare) kiwame are, if genuine, probably quite trustful. reinhard

No trap. My English used to be better twenty years ago, when I made far more use of it. I mentioned it because of semantic misunderstandings in the past and my tone. It eventually sounded harsher to native speakers than I intended to. reinhard

That's almost it. Just a few remarks: This school in Chikuzen province is sometimes called "Kongobei" and sometimes "Kongobyoe". The kiwame goes on with: "jidai" (era) TENBUN (sometimes named TENMON) "koro" (at that time). Nagasa: Ni (two) shaku (two/three?) sun (I'm not sure about this one)........ The name of the appraiser is Hon'ami NISHU (+Kao) Maybe kind Moriyama-san will fill the remaining holes. reinhard

Chris, SEIKEIDO has a very nice Minryushi TOSHIZANE katana for sale right now. It might be interesting for you to compare these two swords: http://www.nona.dti.ne.jp/~sword/katana/toshizane.html BTW, some of the pics there are very well illustrating how to make hamon visible in photographs and not just depicting hadori finish. reinhard

Before starting any action you should know exactly what F/K (or any other tosogu) are made of. Some alloys and their patination are rather robust, but others are extremely delicate and once removed, some surfaces/colors can never be restored in the way their maker intended them to look like. Ford's the man to give particular advice. reinhard

As for the smith: KIYOMARO and SANEO were trained by Kawamura TOSHITAKA of Hamabe school. A native of Inaba province, he later moved to Shinano province and worked there for the Ueda family. Your sword is signed: TOSHIZANE. He was also a master of Hamabe school, but remained in Inaba province and took the name Minryushi. He was not connected to Yamaura-school as far as I know. Always suggested that it is this TOSHIZANE meant here. reinhard

Nick, you may be right, but I have seen several Seki-style blades just like this one, made during early Showa period and mounted for ShinGunTo later. Not only its ugly bo-hi and oversized mekugi-ana give this blade a doubtful appearance. "Fat" sugata and careless yasurime are also pointing towards a newer date of manufacture. Even a badly deformed ShinTo blade keeps at least some of its features, but I can't see any of them here. - All in all, it looks more like a Chinese fake than a ShowaTo, but who knows by now? reinhard

Shan, Markus' remarks are by no means cryptic. They are just polite and he's perfectly right in pointing out the poorly cut bo-hi and other suspicious features. - The comparison of blades you are presenting is no help at all. It's just one blade's sugata compared to others (confirmed in any way?). - No matter what the honey-dipper says: There are no "great looking hataraki" visible in your pics, it's just poor condition of the blade. The blade looks like any 20th century Seki-style blade by now. Garlic again. reinhard

Nhan, traditional polish is not a perfectly uniform procedure. Polishing techniques changed slightly during history and polishers started etching blades during late Edo and Meiji-period. From what I have seen in museums, etching in the later 19th century was a superficial finish only and did not create any relief pattern. Nie-based features like chikei, kinsuji, sunagashi and the like appear extremely flashy at the expense of nioi-guchi. However, I have never come across a top-quality blade (Ichimonji f.e.) "improved" by etching. All examples I have seen up to now are either mid- to low-quality blades from bakumatsu-era or crude gimei. Etching gained some popularity again recently, but is mainly applied to ShinSakuTo, if at all. Here's an example of a (hozon token) katana by MICHITOSHI from Edo, dated Bunkyu 3rd year (1863). It has been slightly etched. reinhard

I'm afraid, some of you lost grip during this thread. It might be interesting to know what "koma-nagura" etc. is all about and put it into relation to the sword in question. There are different stages of polishing: Foundation polishing, using stones named "ara-to", "binsui", "kaisei". Further polishing is done using "nagura"-stones, differing in fineness, and later "uchigumori"-stones: one for the ha, one for the ji. After that small and thin wafers of uchigumori-stones are used: They are called: ha-zuya and ji-zuya. Then a powder named "nugui" is applied to bring out contrasts. If wanted (and most collectors do), hamon's outline is masked by a kind of make-up, called "hadori". You can see these 11 stages in the attachement (from top to bottom and from right to left). The misunderstandings in this thread are due to a general misconception of "hamon" and second to an information in the book "The Craft of the Japanese Sword", which can be easily misleading. It is said there: "But at this stage (koma-nagura) the hamon has become clearly visible." It is visible to the polisher, but not to the viewer of the pics! Actually true hamon is visible in some of the pics BEFORE hadori was applied. Now, looking at worn blades, backward engineering doesn't work anyway. Older stages of polish don't come back again after long and/or exaggerated sword-care. All you can see in pics (like the one in question) is the ha (hardened edge) and its outline. As Carlo pointed out: This is true for oil-quenched blades too and they don't have a hamon, just a hardened cutting edge. Illusion of hamon, however, can be created by "hadori" at all times. - This is no judgement of the blade in question here. Again: Pics are no reliable source of information, especially when it comes to NihonTo. reinhard

This is interesting. Chu-nagura is definitely out of question. Can you provide us with any visual evidence related to the pic(s) in question? reinhard

Much bigger, and it should not be abused for trying to establish the "actual dominant alpha male". reinhard

This excellent quote should be understood in relation to "respect and politeness" and their true meaning. Nobody on NMB is expecting anybody to crawl in the dust, pretending to be humble and submissive. There's nothing wrong with speaking out loud and I do encourage newbies not to be shy. Like Ford (and others before him) said: "There are no stupid questions". All that is asked for is a little awareness of his/her own limits. - Apart from this, there is a fake "politeness". The notorious "IMHO" can express honest modesty (and in most cases it does), but sometimes it is used only as a key to play games. By now it doesn't mean anything anymore. Just for consideration. reinhard

Since my ways have been criticized lately in hijacked threads, I would like to start a new one without bothering other people, who are asking questions about real objects. It's true: I'm not particularly diplomatic, but just as a sidenote: Learning about NihonTo in Japan, you will eventually get addressed to in a far less diplomatic way, always in a polite manner though. Diplomacy and politeness are sometimes confused, I think. - This is "Nihonto message board". It is not "Japanese sabre massage board". Every now and then some of the statements on NMB remind me of creationist's, claiming evolution is nothing but a contestable theory. - It's true: NihonTo is no exact science, but a lot of research has been done. Most of it was never published outside of Japan and even less so in non-Japanese languages. This makes it difficult at times, not always, to establish a constructional dialogue with somebody, whose knowledge is mainly based on unfiltered, western websites and a couple of outdated books, saying: "...but I don't think so....I believe that....and my opinion is as good as anybodys (especially yours)!!!!". I'm sorry, it's not. NihonTo is not about "thinking", "believing" or insisting. It is part of Japan's history of art and can be learned to some extent. - Everybody is free and wanted to ask and contribute, of course, but not all members are talking on the same eye-level as far as knowledge and experience is concerned. I've never pretended to be the ultimate oracle around here, but I often add some evidence to what I'm saying; using more recent, waterproof material if available. Sometimes I don't, when things are just too obvious. Sometimes I'm wrong. - But what really annoys me, are people intentionally abusing a thread in order to play silly games, as happend recently. So....Anybody disagreeing with these points of view or the way one of my posts is written, is kindly invited to post it HERE and not hijacking other people's threads. (If you wanna tell the bastard where to go: PM me. I can take it). This will bring a little relief to the mods, for I intend to clean the mess on this one myself. reinhard PS.: My English is not very good and rather rusty. I'm begging for a little indulgence for semantic misunderstandings in past and future.

Steve, It's quite difficult to make hamon visible by photography. First of all you need to to know what "hamon" is. Obviously you don't. It is built of nioi and sometimes additional nie, which are micro-crystalline structures visible ONLY under proper light-conditions and viewed from a proper angle. In order to make hamon visible on their pics, some of the more advanced photographers change camera-angle from full frontal to a lower angle almost pointing towards light-source. There are two or three photographers, worldwide, capable of capturing hamon within full frontal view, showing it all over the blade, but they don't work for hobby-collectors. What can be seen in most of the pics by amateurs, is the "make-up" only: the artificial, whitish trace left by final stage of polishing, but this is not the hamon itself. You better not confuse these two "ideas" of hamon. I wish I don't need to tell you what kind of pic we are talking about here. Which mei is it, I "stated unequivocally to be fake when it isn't"? Unless backed-up by incontestable authorities, I don't dare making statements like these. I would like to know what thread you are refering to? reinhard

Patrick, I don't have access to the page of imageshack with the hi-res image (maybe registration is needed). Posting a pic and short description would be useful. reinhard

There is no hamon visible on this pic, only kesho-polish outline and some dark patches within habaki area. This doesn't mean, it's not there. It's just not visible on the pics we can see here. reinhard