Dan tsuba

Hi Charlie C., welcome to this great forum. I appreciate what you stated in your post. It was well stated and is a good guide for those that are starting a collection of tsuba. I agree that the money one wishes to spend most likely has to do with the eventual reselling of the piece. Since I have about 200 tsuba in my collection, my objective is for me to keep them and enjoy them and not resell them. There is a lot of learning to be had from even inexpensive tsuba. My philosopy is don't change a winning game, always change a losing game. I beleive that I am winning with my inexpensive purchases of tsuba on eBay. For me it is all about what one can afford at the time of purchase and what new motifs and designs can be added to the collection. Onward my friend!

So, pin yin. Here are some more tsuba in my collection that I purchased on eBay for about $150.00 U.S. I think you get the idea that there are still values to be had on eBay! The first picture shown below is a daisho (small and large sword) tsuba set.

Alex, And there is the difference between you and I. You stated- "My advice to newbies is if you plan on buying lots of mediocre tsuba for $150 (or less) a piece, don't, save and buy better examples. You will appreciate them more and probably re- sell them an hell of a lot faster." Also ypu stated- "Think maybe you are in for one hell of a learning curve when one day you sell some of your collection, that's being honest." I don't collect tsuba to resell them (or anything else that I collect). The "one hell of a learning curve" that you stated is not my concern. I am not looking for a profit from my collection. I collect to enjoy and keep what I have. Obviously, that is not what you do. You probably colllect to resell and make a profit. For you, I think it is all about the dollar bill. My opinion.

Alex, You stated- "Know enough to know that no amount of money should be wasted." What you consider a waste of money by others is not your decision to make. You are entitled to your opinion, just as other are entitled to consider what they determine as a waste of money. Have you seen my post on this thread of the tsuba I purchased on eBay? I would not consider those purchases a waste of money. Again, I was just trying to help the new guy out. What are you doing to help him? Are you advising him to spend his bankroll? My opinion

Well Alex, I was just trying to help the new guy out. You stated- "I was laughing at your buying tactic, not my reply. Its ridiculous logic. Anyways, not going to go around in circles again about wasting money and encouraging others to do the same." It may be ridiculous logic to you, but maybe not to a new collector that may have limited funds. I am not encouraging others to waste their money. From what I can derive from your statements, you think a new collector should waste their entire bankroll on a perfect tsuba that may end up being a fake or a reproduction. Like I stated before, I have seen where even knowledgeable collectors on this forum have gotten ripped off. Perhaps maybe with some judicious looking on eBay, a new collector of tsuba can find some great values like I have over the years. They can always ask for help and assistance from members of this forum before making a purchase. Are you a dealer of tsuba? You sure reply like you are. My opinion.

So Alex, From my entire post, once again someone picks out one sentence and comments on it (and then places what they consider a funny emoji about their reply). What are your thoughts about the rest of my post? Any comments on that?

Hey pin yin, Like jawob stated- “Seems the best way to come ahead is arm yourself with a lot of knowledge, time and patience. Very difficult hobby.” But then again I have seen over the years on various threads on this forum that even knowledgeable collectors are sometimes ripped off. Remember, there are no guarantees (that I have seen) given along with any tsuba purchase. Even the NBTHK papers that a collector will pay a lot extra for that may come with a tsuba could be incorrect or misleading in their description of the tsuba. Eventually, if you wish to collect tsuba you are going to have to make a purchase. I found that a good thing to do is find a highly experienced member on this forum where you can send pictures of the tsuba that you want to purchase and get their opinion of the tsuba before you purchase it. But it is only their opinion and again there is no guarantee that they are 100% correct. Perhaps finding what you consider a reputable dealer is good. But that will take some purchases of tsuba and time to figure that out (unless you can make contact with some very experienced members who maybe can direct you to a reputable dealer that sells tsuba in you price range – whatever that price range is). I have found that there are (what I consider to be) reputable sellers on eBay. But they will not consistently post tsuba on Ebay, it varies (of course) on what they purchase and then post on Ebay. So, it can take weeks before an Ebay seller that you determine as reputable will post his tsuba for sale. Again, my personal saying is if I don't spend a lot I can't get ripped off for a lot! Anyway, these are just my thoughts. Good luck and have fun with the hobby!

Hello pin yin! Welcome to this great forum. I have included some pictures of a small portion of my collection as you requested. I have bought all the tsuba shown on eBay for about $150.00 U.S. or less within about the last 3 years. Many members would probably not even consider collecting these type of tsuba because they probably wouldn't consider them high end enough. But I enjoy collecting these low end tsuba (they don't strain my wallet, and if I do get bit with purchasing a fake or reproduction I don't lose a lot of money!). If you know how to discern an actual Edo period tsuba from a fake or reproduction tsuba, I think there are still deals to be had on Ebay! And someone has to give these tsuba a good home!

Well, to finally address some of Jean’s last post. He stated- “But I have come to the insight that the whole discussion has nothing to do with Japanese culture or TSUBA.” I, on the other hand, think this whole thread and discussion has everything to do with TSUBA. I will refrain from answering the other parts of his post since the last time I did that my post was eliminated and I received a warning and a 7-day suspension on the forum. Onward!

Thanks Colin H for being so kind and refraining from belittleing, berating, and ridiculing me. Well, I evidently see different things in the original post then you. In his original post Colin T initially stated- "A recent auction purchase that I took a chance on as it was described in the catalogue as 'A modern reproduction of a late 19thC Japanese cast metal tsuba'. I had studied the auctioneers pictures and I was pretty sure it wasn't a modern copy as I could see nunome-zogan, the sekigane around the seppa dai and hitsu ana looked like good copper inserts, the figures on the bridge looked typical of ones I have seen on other tsuba and it appeared to come with an old higher spec custom box. I'm no expert here and I may be totally wrong but now I have it in hand it looks authentic?" I was just tryiing to help him out to possibly determine and assist him with his "pretty sure it wasn't a modern copy" and "it looks authentic?". I think that testing the tsuba would help determine if the iron content is an old or new mixture. Anyway, thanks for your kindness. Now let the belittleing, beratting, and ridiculing continue (as I am sure it will !).

Hello Colin, I noticed you may have had a question about your tsuba and its iron makeup in your initial post. Although many members have stated their opinions. If you still have a question about it maybe you can send it to OceanoNox? He advised me on another thread that he would be willing to do an analysis to determine the iron makeup of a tsuba. I quote part of that post below (with some non-relevant areas of the post eliminated and indicated by “….” marks)- “…. Or send them to me to do it. I have access to X-ray, electronic microscope with chemical analysis, and micro-hardness (not quite non-invasive, but still considered relatively non-destructive, if you can bear a barely visible indent) ….”. “I am doing it. I had an idea about tsuba research, and my students and I are doing the calculations and experiments to see it through. It's not cutting edge, it's probably not very noteworthy, but we are doing what's necessary to find out if we are right or not.” Maybe he and his students can help you to make a final determination about your tsuba? I mean it may be worth a try? Just my opinion.

No need to power up the cattle prod! I started this thread, let me end it. Then Brian can lock this thread. So, what the nonbelievers of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period are saying is that there were no cast iron tsuba made until after the end of the Edo period (1868). They are saying that no cast iron tsuba were made during the Edo period. That means that all the craftsmen of tsuba got together and decided to wait until the end of the Edo period before making a cast iron tsuba and then they all said “yeah, let’s go ahead and make cast iron tsuba now”! Come on. Do you really believe that? The more plausible explanation being that at least 40 years (just guessing here - and my guess is derived from other posts and references stated in this thread) before the end of the Edo period cast iron tsuba were being made. Those cast iron tsuba could have been mounted on swords (as many old cast iron tsuba shown in this thread have sekigane in the nakago-ana or are shown mounted on swords) or they could have been made for the tourist trade. The point being that cast iron tsuba were being made in the Edo period. Now the administrator can lock this thread.

Hello Luca! I am back again because I couldn't let your post go unanswered. Well, since you stated that you have read all of my thread from the beginning then you know all of the belittling, berating, and ridiculing that I have endured. Then you go right on and continue the ridiculing (and let us not forget the word delusions that you used in your post)! You stated something like I have shoved my views down the throats of people and that I am forcing people to accept my views. All I have ever tried to do on this thread is present my thoughts (usually backed up with references or resources or pictures or weblinks) that support what is my belief in the possibility that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period. As far as you saying that I have shoved my views down the throats of people and forced them to accept my views, you are mistaken. No one has to accept anything, and if they feel I am forcing my views down their throats (as you stated) they can either spit or swallow. Their choice.

Hello again (and after this short post it will be goodbye again!). I think that most members only read the last couple of pages or the last couple of posts on this thread. If a member has the time and inclination to read this entire thread, I think they will learn much valuable information and insights. Not only about the possibility of cast iron tsuba being made in the Edo period, but also about how this forum operates. Onward!

OcenaoNox, Once again, your opinions are not corroborated with references, pictures, or web links (just like so many others’ opinions on this thread). When even the Administrator of this forum does not appear to have the scholastic background to state his negative belittling, berating, and ridiculing in a more articulate manner and in a positive way which would be more productive (by including references or pictures) then I figure this thread has reached its end. Then there are what I believe to be dealers that support the Administrator. and anyone that states anything positive about cast iron tsuba made in the Edo period will be ridiculed. Just my opinion based on my past experience with this thread. I am out of here, since there seems to be nothing positive that is occurring and the closed minds, limited thinkers, and those that consider themselves gate keepers of the status quo thinking of how tsuba were made in the Edo period won’t let any new ideas take hold or continue on the forum, even though an abundance of evidence has been shown (with stated references, pictures, and web links) by some contributors to this thread of the possibility that cast iron tsuba were made in the Edo period. For some reason there seems to be many individuals that feel threatened by new ideas. Perhaps those individuals don’t want to subject every tsuba they sell to the expense of non-invasive metallurgical testing to guarantee to the buyer that the tsuba they are selling is hand forged and not cast iron? My goal was always to present possible alternative ways that tsuba could have been made in the Edo period, specifically (sand cast or clay cast) cast iron tsuba. My goal was never to purposely upset people or cause conflict. Why several people are so defensive against the possibility that cast iron tsuba could have been made in the Edo period is anybody’s guess. Goodbye, for now.

Hi OceanoNox, Well, as can be seen in the pictures on one of my previous posts that area of the water wheel is not completely flat. Why would a hand forged tsuba not be flat in that area as all the other hand forged tsuba with that motif shown in a previous post are flat? That was another indicator to me that the tsuba could be of cast iron. Anyway, still trying to recover from our Administrator's previous post belittling me. I am not as fast to recover from those insults as I used to be! It is easy for people to state insults. And it is easy to state opinions, but much more difficult to back those opinions up with pictures, references, or weblinks. Only a very few contributors to this thread have ever stated their references and or shown pictures and or weblinks to information. Anyway, personally, for today I have had enough of this forum!

Thanks Brian, Once again you are great at belittling, berating, and ridiculing. Let’s see what others have to say about the comparison of those tsuba

Yes Derek, seriously. Let’s review. I have included the picture of what I believe to be a cast iron tsuba. I have also included a picture of a hand forged tsuba with the same motif as the cast iron tsuba (Florian in one of his posts stated it was of poor quality - to me that tsuba appears that it was corroded and maybe a little overcleaned). Now, let us compare the two. The (what I believe to be) a cast iron tsuba shows many tiny pits on the seppa-dai and other places (which I circled in red). You don’t see that same pitting on the hand forged tsuba. I believe those small pits are caused by sand casting. Also, you notice no good or deep tagane-ato punch marks around the nakago-ana of the cast tsuba. That is because if those tagane-ato punch marks were put into the cast iron tsuba (as they are put into the hand forged tsuba) the cast iron tsuba would crack and break. Also notice the area of the water wheel (circled in blue). On the cast iron tsuba the water wheel area (in some places) is not flat. That is because that tsuba was cast. On the hand forged tsuba that area is flat because the entire tsuba was hand hammered flat before carving in the details. Just my opinions. And of course I could be completely wrong. But I have described what I see. Others have their own opinions (and I am certain that they will tell me!). Addendum- If both these tsuba came up for sale (at $150 U.S. or under, which is my limit of spending) I would purchase the tsuba shown in the second picture (the one that there is no question that it is hand forged).

Rokujuro, You stated in part of your post that- “In addition to that, I find it very unreasonable to believe that an 'unfinished' TSUBA was sold/released from a workshop, with clear signs of hammer-work on the SEPPA-DAI (which is a proof that it is not cast!),” Well, what you see as hammer marks on the SEPPA-DIA I see as casting flaws created by sand casting. So, your proof that it is not cast may be incorrect. Just a difference of opinions. The only way to know for sure would be to subject the piece to non-invasive metallurgical testing, otherwise everything is just everybody’s best guess.

Thanks, Hokke. I agree with you that this tsuba is unfinished. I quote part of your post- “It seems reasonable to me that what we have here is a an "unfinished" tsuba. Not unfinished as in incomplete, but unfinished with respect to the level of the finishing process. This could have been for a variety of reasons like cost, time, customer request or injury.” Although it is my opinion that this is an unfinished cast iron tsuba. Even though there are nice and crisp areas of the cast tsuba that have been filed down, the other areas were not filed or finished. I posted this on Sunday at 12:17 pm (it is on page 19) and is from a dealer in Japan- “When the seam mark was filed off, it is a little difficult to figure out the trick of cast iron tsuba.” For perhaps some of the reasons you mentioned above, the cast iron tsuba was never fully finished. Of course, this is all just my best guess. I don’t think we will ever know for sure if that is a cast iron tsuba or hand forged tsuba. And since you stated in your post that you are unfamiliar with the casting of iron, I found a youtube website that explains how cast iron Japanese kettles are molded and made in the traditional way. It is interesting and is listed below (there are many more videos and websites about this but I just included one)- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqrJC8D3eEs

Hi Derek! So I believe what you are saying is that this is a low quality tsuba and those discrepancies I noted and outlined in blue in my previous post were hand cut on a hand forged tsuba? Well, I appreciate your opinion.

Hi Florian, Thanks for your post and your opinions about that tsuba. I get it and understand what you are saying. I quote part of your post below- “I don’t think it’s cast. As I wrote in the other thread my idea is that this Tsuba is just in the state of an intermediate step. The basic form was produced but a final exact execution is missing for what reason ever. Maybe a customer was fond of the blurred design.” I don’t know. It just looks cast iron to me with several discrepancies and inconsistencies (and I am probably wrong). I have included a picture of that tsuba with the discrepancies outlined in blue. Notice the cutouts on the railing of the bridge are of different sizes and shapes. The handles of some of the buckets are of different sizes. The cutouts of the waterwheel are of different sizes and shapes. It just looks to me like this thing was made by pouring cast iron into a mold. If you look at the same motif tsuba included in the other pictures on my previous post (which I believe are hand forged and hand cut), you won’t find those discrepancies. Anyway, I don’t know. This is just my best guess!

So here are some pictures of some tsuba with the same motif from this forum thread- https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/52786-silver-ring-in-tsubas/ It looks to me like the first picture shown is a cast iron tsuba and it is not done very welll and shows many inconsistencies (my opinion). Whether the tsuba shown in the first picture here (which I believe is cast iron) was made in the Edo period or not is something that can probably never be determined. But the fact that it has a fukurin on it and sekigane in the nakago-ana is of interest. The other pictures shown are examples from that thread of well made hand forged and hand cut tsuba (also my opinion) with the same motif. Thoughts?

Off topic but- I don’t know. Does anybody else see a possible cast iron tsuba here? Or I may need new glasses (which is a major possibility)!

So, from what I gather from MauroP, four experts thought that the mass produced tsuba shown in the post by Spartancrest was made in the Edo period? Anyway, here is an interesting thread from 2011 stating some information about cast iron tsuba and kettle makers (and some other interesting information)- https://www.militaria.co.za/nmb/topic/7626-tosa-kuni-ju-myochin-munetoshi/ Onward!