Dan tsuba

Hey guys, I apologize, this is off topic here (but I will get back on topic soon, I know many of you are saying "oh no" - ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!). This is directed to Derek (Dereks). Hey Derek, Why don't you just go to all the threads I posted on over the years and downvote all my posts? Go for it!

So, guys. Maybe off topic here, or maybe not? But I have always found it interesting that there doesn't seem to be one Japanese person that lives in Japan that is an active member of this tosogu forum (correct me if I am wrong). Now, why do you think that is?

Hi Brian, I was just reviewing one of your previous posts. You stated in part of that post that "Why on earth would you think that dealers in Japan would be experts on motifs? They deal in tsuba, they likely know age and schools and metals and techniques very well. What makes you think they have studied the motifs and themes to any degree at all?" Well since it is their primary business and livlihood, what makes you think that they haven't sudied the motifs and themes to any degree at all?

Hello all! So, to continue. As you know, I have sent several emails to antique tsuba dealers in Japan. Up to now, I have received 3 responses (all shown in my previous posts). I may be getting a few more responses, we will see. Now, all the tsuba dealers in Japan that I sent my initial question to all have walk in stores in Japan where they sell antique tosogu and nihonto. The selling of these antiques is their primary business, livelihood, and living. All 3 responses that I received state that they think the motif is stars and constellations, or a constellation. Can all 3 antique tsuba dealers in Japan be incorrect?

Thank you, Thomas (sabiji), for your post. But I am old and slow (and not getting any younger!). So, what do you mean in your post? Do you mean that the tsuba I showed are not stars and constellations? Do you mean that the tsuba I showed are stars and constellations? Do you mean that the tsuba I showed are a combination of stars and partial Shippo patterns? Do you mean the the tsuba I showed are just Shippo type patterns? Do you mean that the tsuba I showed, it would just be up to the imagination of the viewer on what the motif on the tsuba represents? Thanks!

Jean (Rokujuro), There you go again, just being mean and rude. You talk about a psychological problem in your above post, well you definetely have one! You stated- "While many members would accept an interpretation and consent on it as one possibility among several others, the discussion ends when one individual insists on only HIS interpretation." Well, obviously, you did not read the responses I received from some antique tsuba dealers in Japan or some of the other posts where their interpretation seems to be in agreement with mine on the motif of the tsuba. Then you state in part of your post "It is more a symptom of an obsession." You are just being rude again, I guess that is your obsession! Why do you always have to try to belittle and ridicule me? Go find someone else to take your hostility out on!

Hi Robert! Off topic here. But the technolgoical aspect if the Japanese had the capabability to generate that much heat in the Edo period (and before) to make cast iron, was discuseed in that other thread (which shall remain nameless here!). As well as the possibility that making cast iron tsuba was easier and faster than making hand forged tsuba (which was also discussed). But once again, that thread will remain nameless here!

Don't get me started again on Edo period cast iron tsuba! Ha, ha, ha, ha, etc!

Just received another reply to my question (shown on one of my posts on page 4) from an antique tsuba dealer in Japan. "Hello, Dan sama, Yes, that is a design based on constellations, arranged into a geometric pattern. Have a nice day. Best regards,"

Thank you, Piers, for your post. But I really don't know what you are trying to show? Are you trying to show that those patterns are not similar to the patterns on the tsuba (shown below), or are you trying to show that those patterns are similar to (which I don't think they are) the patterns on the tsuba shown below? Thanks!

I don't know. I figure the only persons that will ever know what these particular patterns on this type of tsuba represent are the tsuba craftsmen that made them. And they have long since passed on! Otherwise, everything is just a best guess. You know my guess (and opinion), based on photographs and star chart references that I have posted. And I know many of the members guess (based on their opinions), saying that they believe it is a partial Shippo pattern. Maybe this will just be one of those tsuba motif questions that can never be effectively answered? Anyway, if I receive another response to my question from an antique tsuba dealer in Japan then I will post it.

So, all, I don't know. Why do some of the members have to be so negative? I mean why can't some members state something like this- "Well Dan, I see what you are saying. It must have taken you a lot of time to do the research and find the pictures you posted and your stated references to try and show your viewpoint on the subject. Also, I know it must have taken a lot of work for you to find those email addresses of the antique tsuba dealers in Japan and ask for their opinions. Although, I don't know if I agree with you or the opinions that the tsuba dealers in Japan responded with. Still, this is an interesting subject and I commend you for your journey and endeavor. Or something to that effect! But no! 2 or 3 members (or more) have just given up and stated something like they are just going to ignore my thread and not respond. They have taken the easy way out. I guess that is what happens when people think that their "Mr. Know It All" attitudes, egos, and reputations are being questioned! Look, guys. I belong to 3 other forums for my other hobbies. This is the only forum I belong to where some members are rude, belligerent, belittling, and ridiculing! Over the 7 years that I have been a member on this forum; I have learned how to defend myself from the (often unexpected) onslaught of some of the members! Anyway, some of you seem to just ignore my pictures and stated references about the star map tsuba. You just seem to ignore the obvious motifs of star patterns and constellations on the tsuba. You just seem to ignore the replies I received from the antique tsuba dealers in Japan (by the way, I may receive another reply tomorrow from a follow up question I asked one of the dealers in Japan). And you just seem to ignore some of my posts. But remember, the Latin verb root for the word “ignore” is the same Latin verb root used in the words “ignorance” and “ignorant”. Just saying!

Hello all! So, I just received a response to my question from another antique tsuba dealer in Japan. I sent the dealer the same question and pictures of the tsuba as I sent to the other dealer that gave me their response (that question, response, and pictures can be read and seen in one of my previous posts). The dealer’s response was- “Dear Dan san Thank you for your message. Thanks send me picture. Yes, I think, too. Maybe Big Dipper. What do you think? Thank you!” Notice that there is no hesitation in the reply. The star pattern was immediately identified as “Maybe Big Dipper” (although my personal opinion is that it is the Little Dipper). Nothing was stated by the dealer about the pattern being anything else. Not a Shippo type pattern, or any other type of pattern.

So all, For a couple of days, I have been trying to research the several books that I have (and the internet) to see if I can find out anywhere if it was ever stated that the motif I termed as “star maps” and "constellations" was ever mentioned anywhere. No luck yet. But then again there is the following problem (taken from AI)- “It is impossible to provide an exact number of untranslated Edo period texts, but historians estimate that over 3 million books, documents, and manuscripts have survived from this era (1603–1868). Only a tiny fraction have been translated or transcribed into modern Japanese, leaving the vast majority of historical material largely untouched.” Also from AI- “Translating all of Japan's Edo period (1603–1868) texts—estimated at over 3 million preserved manuscripts and books—is an impossible task to fully quantify. Because the sheer volume is so immense, the translation process is estimated to take hundreds of thousands of man-hours and would require generations of scholars and advanced AI.” So, perhaps a possible description of the motif of star maps (or constellations) on a tsuba is out there, but it may take at least another 50 years (or longer) to be able to refer to it (of course by that time, I will have long been pushing up daisies!).

Hello all! So, in his post, Dereks stated “I won’t be replying to your response, so don’t bother”. Well then, let me just throw this out there to whomever is there! Derek also stated, “The dealer clearly explained how star patterns are depicted on tsuba, and he does not agree that your shippo patterns are actually star constellations”. I don’t know, it seems to me that the question that I asked the dealer which was- “I have included 2 pictures of the same tsuba below. Could you please give me your opinion on what that design on the tsuba is. Is it showing stars and star constellations. Or is it showing something else?” That question is very explicit, first it asks his "opinion on what that design on the tsuba is" and then it is asking "is it showing stars and star constellations. Or is it showing something else?" I mean that seems like a very clear question to me! And his reply (shown in one of my above posts) is very clear also! Then Dereks goes on to further state “And let me remind you that Japanese dealers are dealers, not researchers. Most simply don’t care enough to investigate these theories.” Is he implying that the Japanese antique tsuba dealers don’t know what they are talking about? I don’t know where he got that opinion from! Oh well! Anyway, I found another picture of what I believe is a star map tsuba. That tsuba is shown below. Now, the way that I interpret that motif is clouds and star constellations. The motif on the bottom is showing 2 clouds and a constellation. The motif on the top is showing 1 cloud and a constellation. Anyway, that is how I interpret it. Onward, the “puzzlemaster” (if you read this thread, you will know where I got that from!).

Wow! All I hear (since my last post) is silence on this thread. It is like the sound of crickets in the night- chirp, chirp, chirp, chirp, is all that can be heard! What happened to all the smart-ass comments from some members that they so readily were willing to contribute? What happened to the “beating a dead horse emoji” that someone thought was so clever? Just asking! Not only that, I have some more emails to antique tsuba dealers in Japan that I may get a response to. If I receive a response from those antique tsuba dealers in Japan, I will add them to this thread. Onward, the “puzzlemaster”!

Hello all, Now moving on from all the insults. A few days ago, I sent emails to a few antique dealers (that deal with tsuba) that are in Japan. This is the email I sent- “Sir, With respect- I have included 2 pictures of the same tsuba below. Could you please give me your opinion on what that design on the tsuba is. Is it showing stars and star constellations. Or is it showing something else? With respect, Dan” Now, the pictures that I included in that email above are shown below. I just received my first response from a dealer in Japan (I don’t feel it is necessary to state the business name of the dealer or the name of the person responding). That email response is- “Dear Dan, Thank you for your message and for the photographs of the tsuba. A design of scattered dots or small circles on a tsuba often represents stars, and such motifs are sometimes intended to depict specific constellations. In Japanese sword fittings, star motifs are frequently associated with the Myoken (North Star) faith, and arrangements such as the Big Dipper (Hokuto Shichisei) are not uncommon. Kind regards,”

Zanilu (Luca) of course (as you stated above) "I was expecting your downvote Dan". That is because you knew that you were being an ass! As far as I am concerned your beating a dead horse emoji is childish. As I see it, you are the deadhorse and I am the one holding the stick! Just because you have those "like", "heart", and "ha, ha," emojis doesn't mean you are clever. You forget that this is a worldwide forum, and your smart ass attitude (and ignorance) is obvious to everyone. Maybe that is why this forum doesn't seem to have any new members that stay on it very long. Because eventually, they will run into someone like you! If you have nothing to contribute to a thread, other than a smart ass comment and an emoji, maybe you should find another hobby!

Sam, Have you read this thread and my posts and have seen the constellations, the old star charts, the current star charts, and the similarity of star patterns that I am referring to compared to those star map tsuba? You stated "Have you tried doing that, or is that a task for us and not you?" Are you trying to be rude to me? If so, KMA (maybe you need to look that up, but with your know it all attitude, I am certain you know what it means!). What evidence can I provide that will convince you of the star patterns shown on those tsuba? Let me know and I will try to find it. The "puzzlemaster".

Sam, My advice to you is read the threads I presented (and the evidence) with an open mind. Zen mind, beginners mind. Enter the thread without any preconceived ideas. Only in that way can you gain knowledge.

Sam, Blah, blah, blah. I don't think you really know what you are talking about and are just impressed with your own knowledge. Do what you want. Lock my threads. Personnaly, I don't give a rat's ass (or ars depending on who is reading this!). The "puzzlemaster"!

Well, Florian, I did not misinterpret you (as you stated). I just put a quote from you on this thread together with a quote from you on another thread to display how your opinion changes from one thread to another. And you can try to put me down about my thread about cast iron tsuba (actually that thread is titled "Tsuba casting molds"). Nice try, but no cigar! That thread has about 66.3 K views. Evidently that thread (as this one at 2K views) has a lot of people looking at it that don’t want to add anything to it; they are probably just trying to learn from the threads (hey, and that is what it is all about!). Now, as far as this forum is concerned. People can put their “likes” and “loves” emoji on those people that they support. But that emoji support doesn’t make the opinion of that person and his post automatically correct! I refer you to what I stated in my other post above! Onward, the “puzzlemaster”!

Well Sam, Evidently this back and forth is getting us nowhere fast! Firstly, I didn’t say you have a beginners mind. I stated, “then it appears to me that you don’t have a Zen mind, beginners mind.” So, be advised. I received my bachelor's degree in 1976; I received my master's degree in 1981. Like I use to tell my troops (yes, I served 16 years active duty in the U.S. military) “when it comes to a battle of wits with me, you come unarmed”. Just food for thought. Onward, the puzzlemaster!

Hi Sam, Anyway, I like the title of “puzzlemaster”. You suggested it and I will use it! As far as your statement “I suggest if you wish to gain that title; you have to actually complete one of the puzzles you've fabricated from nowhere. So far you're just pointing at your puzzle and saying "look a missing piece!" ; and then pretending like you found it because "patterns similar". If that makes you a puzzle-master, then I'm the Pope.” No need to be rude (my opinion). If you don’t think that I haven’t completed a puzzle (that you think-incorrectly-that I fabricated from nowhere), then it appears to me that you don’t have a Zen mind, beginners mind. Like I stated in a previous post, you can’t add tea to a teacup that is already full. Just as you can’t add knowledge to a mind that is already full. Maybe if you had studied astronomy, the stars, and constellations (as I have) you might (quite literally) see things differently. As far as your suggestion of using the quote function, thanks. I will think about it. Onward, the puzzlemaster!