Bugyotsuji

He has got some of his facts wrong, so a large pinch of salt is in order. Thanks Eric. The barrel is blocked off, so the seller suggests it was for positioning on a castle wall and scaring people away, and how about using it as an interesting decoration? Like Chris, I would like to own a little cannon one day. This one is a good example of what is available, but I personally would pass on it, as with many so far. I will know when the time comes! Surely someone will love it and give it a proper home!

They used to be a must item for any rich collector. Part of the problem is there are a lot of fakes now. Even the gun carriages can be made up and aged quite easily. I watched one being made last year. People have begun to mistrust even the real ones... Eric's carriage looks good in the photo, but hard to say. The barrel has a rough and rugged outline that says Chinese, Korean or SE Asia to me. PS Can you give us an indication of size, Eric?

My immediate thought is that the barrel is not Japanese, but you are going to tell me why I am wrong!!! :lol:

Yes, Uwe, that would be a possibility. One thing is that the marking is not actually the signature, but a local goverment registration mark. These can be stamped into the metal of the barrel, or into the stock, or sometimes both. (The gunsmith's signature, or Mei, if there is one, will be found underneath the barrel in 98 out of 100 signed guns). Today I managed to put together more of the story on the heavy hand cannon at my friend's house above. Apparently there were four "Jo-bi-ho" guns made up to protect the walls of Sonobe Castle in Koide. 小出 These became mythical guns, until it became clear that thay had turned up in the possession of people and institutions around Japan. Two are owned by a Mr M in Tokyo, one is owned by my friend Mr O in Kobe, one belongs to a Mr I in Kyoto, and there is one in the National Folk Museum in Tokyo, The Kokuritsu Rekishi Minzoku Hakubutsukan. PS Perhaps I should have known all these facts in advance, but when a good question appears, it is a further chance to do some more delving! PPS Someone handed me the oldest dated gun in Japan today, from Bunroku, with a properly cut date in the barrel. It will be going into the exhibition in March. I hope to be able to photograph everything next week... PPPS I sincerely hope Ron and Ian will continue to keep me honest!

An interesting subject and some good questions, plus some excellent replies. Today I was asking around for more information, but Ian beat me to the mark. Apologies for some misinformation in my earlier post. I did not mean to suggest that loose powder was carried in the drawers! Ian is right about sharing gun size. There would be a group of 'Yori-ko' musketmen called up, who would be issued with for example 6 Monme guns, '0-kari-deppo' (lend guns). The man in charge of this group and who would hand out the guns would be called the 'Yori-oya' or Yori boss. The bore within this group would be standard so that ball could be interchanged. (The guns, would have been manufactured to order with the bore set by the same barrel rod.) Other Yori-Oya would bring their men together and the whole group was called the 'Kumi'. Each Kumi might have a different specialty or size of gun/bore. Various Kumi from around the Han came together and formed the Tai or Teppo-tai, for the Lord. Privateer Samurai would carry a Shizutsu, perhaps 10 Monme 'Ju-monme-zutsu', and could have up to four men with specific roles eg Tsutsu-mochi, Danyaku-mochi, to support him. (We try to be historically accurate, and everyone is very keen on delving into the arcane secrets of the past, and we get chewed out if things are not right, but as Ian suggests, each modern teppou-tai will have more or less 'authentic' material. One thing is we always use genuine guns, replicas not being permitted for firing in Japan. The crowds are generally friendly, but lurkers will come out and let you know if something isn't right.)

Battle tactics were cleverly worked out as can be seen at Nagashino. Gunners were staggered so that a third were reloading as a third fell back and a front row was firing. They ran as they swapped positions in and out, making use of the Ba-bo-saku fencing. Takeda Shingen's mounted troop was destroyed by the shocking rate of fire thus achieved. PS I can provide photos of any of the above objects if you are interested. As to reading materials in English, I should imagine Ian, Ron etc., may be able to help you.

Peter, some very good questions there, none of which I can answer. I spend much of the year moving with a castle matchlock display group, but it would be hard to say what is from pre-Edo and what is post. Watching them though, I suspect much of what our members do is 'natural' to them culturally and historically. I just follow along until it becomes second nature for me too. Well, not all of it. :lol: Since caliber/bore was *not standardized, each gunner would carry all of his own tools, including bullet mold/mould and apart from major repairs, would be able to do everything regarding upkeep of his personal armour/armor and weapons. *Not strictly true! Read Ian's reply below. Among the antique objects we collect on the side, you can still find old Danyaku-bako, or powder boxes. These have drawers in them for the components of ammunition, and many have shoulder straps for the allotted fellow to lug around the battlefield. The powder is prepared and a certain amount is finely ground for the priming powder. Where we gather and get into our armour, there is a designated powder person who calls out our names with coarse and fine powder rations, pre-prepared for each Tai-in member. Each person carries a 'Douran' box on his belt which can contain perhaps ten or twenty quick-loading tubes depending on individual size. We also have a string around the neck with quick-loading tubes affixed thereon. Ball-bags can be found in antique shops, but none seem to be very large, holding up to thirty or so ball, I imagine? Depending on the upcoming battle size, there would be no harm in spending the previous evening creating plenty of ball for your gun. Unfortunately after 10 or 20 shots the barrel gets very hot and fouling from blackpowder would have been a serious problem. Perhaps a good shot may have had two or three guns being loaded for him by nearby ashi-garu, especially for castle defence/defense. How fast you can reload depends on practice, but around thirty to forty seconds?

Just passed this on to the sword appreciation teacher in Okayama City, but I expect stolen stuff will go outside the prefecture first...

Excellent, Ian. Perhaps they had their k*ntama pushed up inside or lopped off beforehand! Yes, the introduction mentions BW Robinson's "Kuniyoshi, the Warrior Prints". And, the idea of dumping them out the back door seems to be a plausible theory. At a later date Satsuma are said to have sold off all theirs down south when they bought new British artillery and small arms during the Bakumatsu period. In with the new and out with the old, a repeating pattern?

Part II. (These 'parts' are mine, just to give me a break!) Actually the original Japanese is very difficult, but easier in some ways to understand than Sawada Sensei's modern 'explanation' Kaisetsu. "In order to fire a (match) mechanical lock gun, kneel on the ground with both knees, stomach down, stretching both arms out to the fullest, put your heels together into your buttocks, hold your breath, infuse Ki into your whole body, and fire. After it fires, receive the gun's recoil between your knees. For a touch-hole gun, (position) behind on the right, with your right knee on the ground and the left knee upright (the pic looks opposite to me?) hold the taper/touch-rod in both hands and put it to the hole; the friction of parts of the carriage that are in contact with the ground will take up the recoil." ***This translation is mine and there are no guarantees as to its accuracy. It is based partly on Sawada Sensei's reading of the old Japanese text and partly on the old text itself where I cannot understand Sawada san's meaning.

Actually this book is quite interesting. Never really read it before, just enjoyed the illustrations. The way he has laid it out you get a) a photo of the original hand-written MS. Below that you get b) a transliteration, word-for-word into print, using the original Kanji with furigana readings alongside. Since few people today can get the meaning of this either, he has a third section c) giving a 'modern' reading of the original. Further, he includes notes to clarify words that we still would not understand today. Today I will give you d) a modern (?) English rendering of his c) above. (Just took 10 minutes to try and find the very first Kanji...) Part I "Large guns which go by the name of field guns, (Yasen-zutsu) need to be fitted to a carriage in order to improve mobility. The axle of the carriage can be used as a pivot to adjust elevation, and the wheels will help to take up recoil with smooth backward movement. With opposite movement in the wheels the muzzle can be moved freely left or right through 360 degrees. Adapted for quick movements, a small carriage is good, with a broad track and a thick axle. They will not be as good as Western guns which can be lugged around with horses, but they will not sink into sandy patches, and will be good in gravel or boggy areas, thus good for Japanese topography. There are different firing procedures for Taiho touch-hole cannon carriages and lock-type O-zutsu gun carriages."

If you are yet to be convinced, Ron, then we are in the same boat! Food for thought, though... :lol: PS The prints were run up by a famous war illustrator Ukiyo-e artist Utagawa Kuniyoshi, to show simply what the master gunner was describing. Each picture is an illustration of a page of written text. Next you'll be asking me to see what he actually said to justify such illustrations! PPS The gun above has quite a story to it, but I can't remember the details right now. It was one of a famous set of four to defend the four corners of a castle somewhere, or it was a fifth that was discovered which proved the four-theory wrong... or somewhere-abouts. I'll double-check that. Always getting the tail-ends of conversations, and unwilling to stop the flow of chatter!

PS I am always amazed at how much detail you are able to pick up from a photograph, Ron. As a special treat, here is a close-up of the trigger, but how on earth did you know it would be hard to pull? The butt is so thick that the trigger is set markedly to the right side. (No good for lefties!)

These pics are taken by the author from an old book of gunnery warfare by a master gunner Ohmori Minamoto no Masatomi 正富 in 1855. The last one is how to deal with rain. Heaven forbid that I should be leading the younger members astray!!!

These pics are taken for educational purposes, from pages 31-37 of Sawada Taira's book book Koshiki-ju Nyumon　砲術士筒之部 「武道芸術秘傳図会注解」2001 Kobe ISBN4-87787-072-5 c3021 Notice the O-zutsu tied to the axle with rope.

Apologies, Ron. You are absolutely right. The photo was merely an example of what wheels on a gun could look like, and no more. I have several more taken from different angles, and a close-up of the Mei, but that one kind of hid the damned spot behind the spokes!!! :D Now I wish I had added that caveat! This particular example is not attached in any way, but this kind of set-up was definitely used. I can include photos of old prints if you like, in fact I will go and find some now. PS The guy was quickly decorating part of his new house as an artifact room and invited us round for a sneak preview. He himself has a fabulous collection of Menpo and Kawari-kabuto.

Dirk, wonderful. A lot of love and attention must have gone into that. Is Mizuno Masanori still well-known today?

Ian, one thing that comes up is the heaviness of older guns. I have handled a few from around Keicho and for some reason they are staggeringly heavy for the relative narrowness of the caliber/bore. 20 monme guns should be easy to carry, but those older ones would definitely need two people or a gun carriage of some sort. In a time of repeated war perhaps earlier ones were built to withstand constant use without blowing up. Later refinements may have made greater bore for less weight possible.

Yes, Ian is correct. Very few early guns were signed, it seems, but very few even exist. Sawada Sensei mentions a couple from what he calls the 'Dark Age'. The oldest signed gun is in a temple in Kyoto, Daitoku Ji, and the date is written in sumi ink on one facet of the butt. Missing the lock, spring, serpentine section. The gun is called Kizo-toritsuki-ju. Tensho 19. In this case he thinks the gun may be genuine. The barrel of the gun that allegedly killed Takeda Shingen in the first year of Tensho is kept in Shinshiro City, but for several reasons the story does not quite hold together. The barrel has '13 Monme' carved on the top, and evidence of some illegible characters underneath which 'show some similarities to Muromachi swordsmith signatures', but other aspects of the barrel suggest post-Keicho. Uwe, "Jinshin" 壬申 indicates the zodiac name for the year and is the mark that was hammered into all guns above a certain caliber during the first post Edo general registration in Meiji 5, 1872. Usually there is a Ken (Prefecture) name and a number that was allotted to each gun. Many guns slipped through, so do not have it. If yours does, then it either one useful marker post for the gun's history, or a fake that has been added to give semblance of more age to a later gun. The latter (faked jinshin marks) are not so common, I believe, but it is good to be aware that they do exist.

I wonder. Swords and bows and spears had a long and venerated history. Perhaps guns did not fit into the idea of family heirloom. We know that Japanese people like knocking down old buildings and building anew. Maybe they were happy to hand them in. Perhaps the government had a clever way of controlling the production and sale of gunpowder, as today, which might have made guns redundant/useless. With laws on making new ones, then the gun stocks would have fallen rapidly. Sword production also fell off rapidly into Tokugawa times.

Hand in hand with this would have been the attrition during battles. At each battle the losers would have dropped their guns as they were fleeing. "Who, me? I am just a simple peasant/farmer/merchant". At Sekigahara the Western army fled into the mountains and dropped their guns into the woods and streams as they ran. Much of the discarded weaponry was gathered up by the local populace and buried. Marker mounds were set up here and there all over that area, for both bodies and equipment. Quite possibly half of all remaining guns in Japan were lost at this one battle alone. And each time Japan was potentially united under a new ruler, eg Tokugawa Ieyasu, there would be a round-up and registry of all guns out there, and rules on numbers allowed for castle Daimyo. The battles at Osaka Castle and later at Shimabara would have been a magnet for every available gun, and in the aftermath more huge attrition. Were the rulers, and was the populace, finally allergic to guns, which had brought such horrors upon the nation? This would slot into Noel Perrin's ideas in "Giving up the Gun".

So here goes the theory. We know that tens of thousands of guns were manufactured and used at famous battles from 1550 till the end of the Muromachi. Many of these would have also been taken to Korea with Hideyoshi. At first I imagined some kind of mass dumping at sea but that did not seem to fit any theory well. Two things seemed to be strong candidates. One was the occasional round-up of weapons carried out in Japan, the most memorable perhaps being the Jinshin tagging in Meiji 5. If you think of Libya today with so many weapons in the hands of the various militias it becomes obvious why a central government would want to collect them all up. The Japanese tend to be good at doing things thoroughly in groups, as when all metal was expropriated during the Second World War. There is a suggestion that all old guns may have been collected for scrap metal and reuse in forges for new life as cannon etc.

The pistol will be going on display so the authorities have been working on the wording for it. "A Kagozutsu. Kago-zutsu were a symbol of wealth, carried like a Kago-yari in a Norimono Kago by a person of high status." Sawada Taira Sensei says in his book, 'Nihon no Furu-ju' that it is doubtful whether such an object or word ever really existed. Then recently on one of his websites I noticed him describing a long pistol that he had acquired as a Kago-deppo. Hmmm... Anyway I was told to take lots of photos as the gun will be sequestered until the middle of May. I will be handing it over this Sunday morning. Parting is grief. Here is a family group shot. The three closer guns are my regular workhorses for displays. From front: 1. 1.4 cm muzzle internal diameter cavalry Bajo-zutsu pistol circa 1615, Kunitomo, signed. 2. 1.7 cm, Kumamoto Castle armoury Gunyo-zutsu long gun, signed & dated 1847, Higo. 3. 2.1 cm, Tazuke Ryu O-zutsu, SasaLindo Ishikawa Mon, Kameyama, Ise. Mid Edo. Unsigned. 4. 1.0 cm, long pistol in Bizen/Satsuma crossover style. Late Edo. Bizen, signed. Since this whole incident I have been pondering why virtually all guns from before 1600 'vanished' without trace or record. A series of explanations has since bubbled up.

John, yes we can all see the curve, (with a bit of an effort to cross the eyes and an extra glug of the 'grog') but I owe you one, so I'll admit it! :lol: What makes the Kozuka gimei in your opinion, Brian? (No axe to grind here either way, BTW) Welcome here Lub41, but you'll have to learn to roll with the punches. They are good dogs, er... boys, here. They don't mean any harm... well, most of them...

What do we know about Yoshitane?