Hoshi

Thank you Carlo. That's very valuable information. No need recreating the wheel from scratch when you can learn from others. Could you send me a link to the program, or the post discussing it?

Thank you for your input. I think I have a far easier solution to this little project. AoiJapan.net has a collection of 1600+ swords. I wouldn't use the raw images, but mine the text provided into a comprehensive dataset. It wouldn't be an exercise in image classification as I had in mind, but it would certainly provide interesting insights and better effort invested/accuracy ratio. Since when has AoiJapan.net been operating, btw? I recall discovering this treasure trove only recently. It's very unusual for sellers to be so transparent on things such as price realized, as this is the sort of "private" information used to provide an edge in trading. It's valuable.

This is very interesting. Creating the Kobuse construction by using a "pipe-shaped" high carbon steel envelope, in which a rod of low-carbon steel was inserted I find quite fascinating.

It's possible, of course. But probably better handled by a native Japanese speaker, in terms of setting up the pipeline, and so on. I'm sure there is a lot of OCR work related to recognizing Japanese/chinese characters in calligraphy being done.

Beautiful. Have you considered adding a dynamic pan/tilt with lighting at the end of the video to bring out some of the details of the steel structure/hamon?

Hi all, I'm testing the waters to know if enough data is available to try a little exotic project. I do a fair bit of work in data science and I'd be interesting in training a classifier to make approximate nihonto attributions. For this sort of project, one needs a lot of data and it needs to be labelled. Something realistic would be to have a database of Oshigata accompanied by periods (Koto, Shinto, etc). It's unclear at this stage how much data points would be needed, but close to five hundred representative oshigata per period would be a good start to achieve accuracy above the obvious. Another feasible project would be Godaken attributions. Smith school attributions would require high-resolution images with proper lighting, and additional information that can't be easily captured easily by camera for "standard" images. (e.g presence/absence of Utsuri, mune thickness, etc). And lots and lots of data. I'd be willing to undertake this little project if there is sufficient interest. Of course it would require someone who has, or is willing to digitalize a vast quantity of Oshigata for this purpose. One solution I have been considering would be use AoiArt as a database, and continuously download their labelled data with a web crawler (with their permission). And perhaps over time we'd have a large enough dataset. But given the turnover it would take a very long time. In principle, if we had all the existing data on swords with high quality pics and accompanying information about elements that are not present in the picture, we could have an interesting new Shinsa method. After all, what judges do is a form of very sophisticated classifying. But, in all likelihood, we will never get such immensely valuable dataset. Nihonto is unlikely to move in the age of big data so soon. One of the most interesting aspect of training such a classifier, is that we know a lot about the proper order of judgement leading to attribution. This can be implemented into the system. I'd be interested in pursuing this as a side hobby if there is sufficient interest. Let me know what you think.

This just adds to the puzzle to me. As others have said, it seems improbable that these heavy blades were used on horseback (I'm also skeptical that swords at this period were of much use on horseback, when they had spears, and the key technology to carry momentum on the spear from the horse, the stirrup). Furthermore, "foot soldiers" in the classic sense (those who can't afford a horse, i.e ashigaru) would not have been able to afford them. I read somewhere that the Japanese had a focus on single combat, even during large scale battles - where you would "call" your opponent and engage him. No real formation fighting - which would in part explain the lack of shield walls and spear lines so often found -across cultures- with an emphasis on battle formations. This was further incentivized by the gain in status following victory. The long, heavy blade makes a lot of sense in the context of one-on-one combat, where the opponent can be expected to be heavily armored, in some cases and where reach is key. This would match the phenomena observed across Europe towards long blades for purposes of duels. I remember reading somewhere that "blade size inflation" was so pronounced that the English Crown issued an edict on the maximum blade length allowed. In Germany, the professional duelers recruited to settle "Trial-by-combat" had especially long blades. These long swords were produced as a response to improvement in armor technology.

Interesting. It looks like one of the curio sold to foreigners, but of much higher quality than the usual "bone daggers" I've seen in the past. It could also be the remnants of a ruined blade unfit for the Japanese market. And it was re-hammered (look at the nagako, deformation of the lower-most hole) and basically re-packaged for the foreign market by some cunning artisan-recycler.

You make an interesting point about the lighting conditions. That may be part of it. The Muramasa did not strike me as impressive, either. The jewels to my eyes were the Rai work and the Ichimonji. Also, I particularly enjoyed one of the less famous piece - the very dignified Motozane tachi with ko-nie as bright as diamonds.

What was the challenge that spurred the creation of massive blade in this era? Must have been in response to the armor arms-race - but do they coincide with revolution in Yoroi armor? Or as text book would have it, due to the challenges posed by "Thick, boiled leather armor" encountered during the 13th century. I know that the authorities became paranoid about the risk of mongol invasion and hence spent its coffers on improving its arsenal. However, I don't understand why "Thick boiled leather armor" would pose a greater challenge to sword structure compared to the iron-platted yoroi. Does anyone have an explanation? Why were thick swords not developed earlier in response to improvement in soldier protection? Was it because the Mongols had every foot soldier outfitted in cheap to manufacture "thick boiled leather armor" while only warrior elite had the ressources to wear Yoroi plate? Finally, why not focus on thrusting weaponry as a response to development in slash-resistant armor? As many civilizations have done in the past.

I really admire your work, Brian.

And two more : The different picture styles (and poor quality) makes it even more difficult to compare. http://www.sho-shin.com/kanenag.htm Tokuju, Kinzogan mei this time. http://www.sho-shin.com/kanenaga.htm, Juyo

Thanks Peter. The Japanese sword section has a lot of errors, but the metallurgy part is good. On a different topic, I found the part about the Ulfberth swords to be most interesting. Fascinating stuff.

Thanks for the tip, Jean. Struck ~135% of the reserve price. 1.7KK. A quick search at other blades from this smiths tend to be associated with much higher prices, and (judging exclusively the blade from the pictures/descriptions, which is difficult if not impossible...and not from the papers...) It's hard to see in which way this shu-mei would be (much) inferior to some of the previous exemplars. Except for the last example, which appears in a league of its own. https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-mumei-den-kanenaga17th-nbthk-juyo-paper/ 3.6KK http://www.sword-auction.jp/en/content/as16206-%E5%88%80%EF%BC%9A%E7%84%A1%E9%8A%98-%E5%85%BC%E9%95%B7-katana-mumei-kanenaga 3.2KK https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-mumei-kanenaga46th-nbthk-juyo-paper/ 3.6KK https://www.aoijapan.net/katana-mumei-attributed-as-kanenaga/ (This one is a real stunner) 4.8KK These are all swords that sold. Here the only TH Kanenaga katana I could find for comparison. (which makes for a very biased sample of the Smith's work...) https://nihontoclub.com/discussions/2013/08/30/Kanenaga-with-NBTHK-Tokubetsu-Hozon-paper So perhaps there is an elephant in the room? Since it papered TH 15 years ago, I surmise its previous owner tried Juyo shinsa once or twice, and it just didn't fly.

It's very nice, its close to the price of making the koshirae and a touch up polish... A true bargain.

I was somewhat dissapointed by this sword when I saw it. There were many magnificent swords on display, and I intently kept the Masamune as the last piece to study. Maybe I built up unrealistic expectations, or my eyes aren't honed enough to notice the finer points of appreciations. The Koshirae however was wonderful, and the historical background of the sword was interesting. Thanks for sharing pictures, they are better than mine!

Absolutely stunning work. The details in the face, and the seemless integration of the body in the iron is simply marvelous!

Beautiful sword!

Hi Guido, Good idea. I think you may want to look at the concept of Vikrey auctions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vickrey_auction If enough people participate Vickrey auctions are the best when it comes to matching seller/buyer tru values

Darcy you should write a book. Your answer was informative, especially the part pertaining to the Honami and Kyomaro. I recall an article about blade prices on Markus Sesko's website (link) where it mentions the prices of other shinshinto smiths (Masahide 7.5 ryo, Naotane 5 ryo). I surmise that given Kyomaro's notorious talent and productivity issues, his prices could have been far steeper than those of Masahide. On a side note, I wonder how Kyomaro incurred so much debt during his lifetime (which is one of the theory about his suicide). Unless he had shark lenders taking a big chunk of his income, or was visiting high-end prostitutes every second night, you can't just drink away all of that gold in sake. On the buyer/seller incentives and the Honami : I get from this that the buyer had no incentive to request identification papers from the Honami in the first place. If his payoff is "perception" - in the sense of owning a prestigious blade to heighten his social status, there is a clear rational to go for a good fake at a bargain, rather than incurring the certainty premium + Honami fee. While the economic incentives are completely different for the seller. Hence, I suspect most of Honami's clients were prospective sellers, or owners of significant collections to ascertain the worth of their assets. Those with the status to request "favors" however, must have constituted the vast majority of his "repeat customers".

I'm also interested. Nice job.

Darcy, thank you for taking the time to reply with such a erudite and didactic post. It's fascinating how culture shapes perception, and in the end, shows that learning is more about asking the right questions than seeking answers to naive ones. A humbling and poetic conclusion to my inquiry.

Beautiful. Could you make a front/back picture without an angle of the last Tsuba?

Thank you everyone. I just purchased Josh's copy.

This is a very interesting topic, and I apologies in advance for "thread necromancy" - I do not know if it acceptable practice on this board. I think Darcy makes a good case, which is relevant to my investigation. There is however a counter-argument that I am struggling with. Assuming the fraud was to pass as a rare and very valuable Koto-era sword. Wouldn't the buyer ask for appraisal by the Hon'ami before spending a fortune of gold coin? Hence, the goal of high-level fraudsters would be to induce Hon'ami in error, and this would require high-level work that was deliberately made to imitate and old master's style. You can't just take an "of the mill journeyman" to do this, you would need someone of significant skill. There are of course variation around fraud transactions, just as in the painting world. Some fakes are sold off feigning the urgent need for a "quick buck" - this is where greed kicks in and terrible fakes are exchanged. Other masterwork frauds go through rounds of appraisals by experts before being exchanged as the real thing. Different business models. High-volume low-margin / low-volume high-margin. Thank you