Peter Bleed

This is an interesting and important discussion. The ways that Japanese swords were treated - by the Japanese, by the US occupying forces, and by the the mass of individual Americans who saw them suitable souvenirs all deserve to be considered. And sure, Col. Cadwell was important - which is why his bronze bust is there in the Musuem. But other responsible Japanese were actively trying to make their occupiers aware of the importance and interest if Japanese. In 1947 - when people were hungry and unhoused, Inami Hakusui and Honma Junji produced english language books seeking to educate GI's about swords. All of that deserves attention. Not to mention John Yumoto. But we shouldn't ignore or overlook the efforts of Japanese folks to get back swords that had been taken from their country after the War. A few serious Japanese individuals came to America to buy swords in the early 1960s, but they had limited success. Takahashi Nobuhide-sama, a gentleman and an artist, told me that he had gone to California looking for swords, but decided that they had all been destroyed becasue he couldn't find any. Remember, too, that Ogawa Morihiro first showed up in America -- at the Chicago Sword Show!. As swords moved from garage sales and gun shows, there were some serious attempts made by Japanese individuals to buy back swords. They figured out where the swords were and how to get them bought. That is when prices rose, when a number of serious buyers became active - servicing Japanese buyers. Newspapers in even small cities ran "wanted to buy add" several times a year. That whole process deserves attention. To understand Japanese swords in the world today, we really have to recognize the role played by gunshow hustlers and fleamarket pickers in the post-War era. Peter

I appreciate these nice comments. Indeed, this list is a fine community that helps a wide range of folks interested in Japanese swords. "Sword collecting" certainly is not the activity it once was and there is a great generation shift going on. Isn't it interesting how "international" sword appreciation has become. The hobby I discovered depended on a disorganized mass of war souvenirs and a trivially small literature. Now, thanks largely to communities like this one and the labor of folks like our dear Brian (thank you thank you!), information is readily available. There was a time when we had to teach ourselves how to read signatures. And it was a slow process. B. W. Robinson taught us how to count strokes and read the kanji so that we could dig thru Hawley and find what mattered. Golly it was fun, but now all that information can be provided expertly - and really rather politely and positively - in a matter of hours. Thanks to this fine list!

Eric, please tell us about this sword. I read it as a wartime sword and had no idea that it is a true and laudable gendai-to. Peter

Yeah, I'm staying with Noshu Seki ju, Kanetoki, Nice crossfiled nice cross filed nakago, looks like a classic Seki. Is it gunto? Peter

Isn't that a "TOKI" KANETOKI,

Dear Friends, I have not had my ears on for a while, but it looks like am am back in the system. This is a wonderful community and I am especially interested in "collecting" so this thread is a wonderful time for me. In my opinion, there are three - count'em 3 - approaches to collecting, that is three strategies for assembling things. These approaches are 1) hoarding, 2) systematic collecting, and 3) quality collecting. 1. The hoarder just likes MORE. 2. The systematic collector understands the range and variation present in the items they collect and seeks to get "examples" of that range. Obviously this kind of collector needs to do continual research on the stuff they collect. They also emphasize distinctive characteristics and the differences and range between things. 3. Collectors who go for quality need to understand both the stuff they collect AND the standards that they and/or others have developed for their stuff. In my opinion each of these approaches is okay, but hoarders have the most freedom and personal control over their activities. Peter

I am trying to get back in the Message Board.

echizen ju Mune...shige mebbe

Looks like a casting. I am not sure that answers your question, but I'd assume this is an Edo period piece. Peter

I joined the NBTHK in 1969 but have had a consistently hard time staying involved. Clearly operating the club is a lot of work. At the moment I am having problems contacting the American Branch. Can anybody tell me who/how to contact? Peter Bleed

I stumbled on to this thread earlier today. Holy Cow! I will NOT say I "care" about this topic or that I think it contributes DEEPLY to the study of Nippon-to. BUT there is some really outstanding thought and work here. Thank you and WOW! I sincerely hope that the major players - Bruce and John - will take a step back, organize the available information, and then published the results. When it is all in a clear presentable form, I wonder if anybody in Japan would be at all interested in this work. Like I said, WOW! Peter

This discussion truly is interesting. And I certainly don't wish to argue with true experts. But, there is no question that a wide variety of cast iron objects were made and use in Japan in late Edo times, various vessels, roof tiles, agricultural gear.... Making these things involved hand finishing and removal of sprues etc. This is work that peasants in Iwate-ken did to avoid starvation. There were as well, guys who needed to wear a sword from time to time, but who could only afford mass-produced cheapos like the cast iron tsuba we see today. Peter

Sorry, I had my ears off for a bit, Jeremiah has certainly improved the presentation. And I certainly have got to address the 5th generation. That is the hole in my research and in the spreadsheet. Did everyone see the picture of the burial spot of the entire Kunikane line that is shown in the latest issue of Token Bijutsu? They are "buried" in a nice tight circle that is a tourist stop in Sendai. Peter

I am feeling trapped by a pair of fat-tailed squirrels so I have decided - naturally – to share my situation with this fine community. The beasts that are vexing me are a really nice pair of menuki (Ezo style, I’d say) that came to be with a nice katana koshirae but that retain NO HINT of the original wrap. The fact that the menuki were not lost amazes me, but there they are. And I am not a menuki fancier, but these guys look darn good. They are so nice, indeed, that I have never pushed ahead with getting the tsuka re-wrapped. Are there menuki TOO GOOD to use? Peter

Sean, Taking care of Japanese swords is a challenge. "Former glory" and "period correct" are easier to say than they are to address. In fact, a nice Higo shinto like your sword may have had a couple of different sets of fittings at any one moment, not to mention replacements as owners and tastes changed. There is NO simple answer to what a good, middle rank sword should/did/might look like. As the current owner, your tastes matter. You get to decide what style/fashion/type you prefer. And, in any case, restoration is NOT something you can do. You need an expert's skills and the advice of a dealer who can (for a price) provide you with fittings that are right for 1) the sword,and 2) your plan. And be patient! Finding the people and the pieces needed for this project will take a long time. It will happen away from you and will follow a schedule that you do not command. You will probably want to meet other collectors who can help you find and make the contacts you will need. Oh, and that is FUN. You may even discover other stuff that you will want! Peter

Here is my attempt to present the Kunikane line -- against the whole chronology of the Edo period. Peter Kunikane Line.xlsx

After Matsunoki-sama got us looking at the – ahhh – interesting shin-shinto Kunikane tanto, I got out some older notes and files on the KUNIKANE line. (Thank you! Colin!). One thing led to another and I bumped into a big old file I had forgotten. Several years ago I tried to pour the KUNIKANE genealogy into an EXCEL file. I have no skill with the program, or computer Nihongo, or the Kunikane genealogy. But it is kind of interesting to see how the “line” was organized. Should I/could I post that file here and would anybody find it interesting? Peter

Well, gee, another Tenmei dated Kunikane. I suppose some people like them, and I'd take it if you were going to drop it off at the Goodwill..... But seriously, ... a very nice, shinshinto tanto by the guy who was setting out to revitalize the Kunikane line. The "line" had been maintained between the 5th and 9th generations, but without leadership or - I think - actually continuity. It was officially recognized and everybody knew how to do masame. Number 10 started an apprenticeship in Sendai but then went down to Edo is like 1778 or so and started work with Masahide. He actually ko-signed at least one blade with Masahide so there were no flies on him, BUT he died in Tenmei 6, which is like 1786 when he was 29. The Kunikane line just couldn't catch a break. Tom's assessment is perceptive and interesting. There certainly were lots of re-signed blades created with, for, and about Kunikane. There were guys in Edo who made high-contrast masame during the shin-shinto era. Whoever made it (and I'd bet on KK 10) this looks like classic, late Edo period carry sword - flashy, famous, and real good. Kind of over the top. Peter

A good discussion. Thank you all. In fact, I was kind of wondering about Korea as a point of origin. We certainly know that Japanese firearms were used in Korea. And there would have been several ways that Korean materials might have arrived in early modern Japan. Peter

I agree with Piers. BUT I sort of suspicion that not all of this is "Japanese." Elsewhere in East Asia and colonial Japan?? How would we check? Peter

I just read - and enjoyed ! - this thread. Thank you all! I knew the answer right from the first image, but the discussion of worthy. And then we got to listen to Ford and see some stuff that was worth looking at. NMB at its best! We all have had the opportunity to look at/buy/swap Soten guards. This thread shows us that even if we don't like Soten stuff, those experiences are not be wasted! Peter

Simon, this is indeed an interesting presentation. Thank you. I am interested, but suspicious. The reality is that Japanese sword experts know little about swords from other regions. The threaded tang is certainly odd. This sword deserves to be studied in Europe or at least by European researchers. Again, thank you for this post! Peter

I'm sorry to say that I did not attend this Show. But my friend Doug Scott went to the big show to look at high-end frontier guns. I asked Doug to walk thru the Japanese section. He kindly called to tell me that the Japanese Sword section was by far the most active and apparently well-attended part of the the grand Las Vegas Show. The Nippon-to section had more people than did the "gun" sections. Doug also said that he was welcomed and greeted by Mark when he said hello. Peter