Kajihei

Hi All, Wow, what a great idea! I don't mean to sound cynical, and I am sure this is the seller's way of expressing his confidence, but this is also a brilliant marketing strategy. If I had a sword to sell and want $10,000 for it, I will ask $15,000 and offer the juyo guarantee or else refund $4,000. Buyer will be happy, I will be happy, and NBTHK will certainly be happy to collect the shinsa fee. We all win. Why don't more dealers do this, I wonder. Kaji

I agree with Brian. On swords costing over $10,000, I would want to hold it in my hand first. On some of the swords listed by komonjo, I see that he offers to show it at his shop in Southern California. I guess they are swords he has on hand. The Gassan in question appears to be located in Japan, but I am sure he can arrange a showing there too. Or, ask him to have the sword shipped to his shop first and then fly to Southern California, if it is closer than Japan. Buyers of swords in this price range should be willing to invest some time and travel before purchasing, and the sellers too should accomodate potential buyers as much as possible, I believe. Many sword dealers in Japan are wiling to bring a high-priced sword to a potential client, anywhere in Japan. Even an automobile salesman will bring a car to the buyer's house to show it. May be that's possible because Japan is relatively small, and such a practice is too much to ask from an American dealer. Kaji

Hi All, I asked Mike Yamaguchi if he recalled this Sukesada. He did some checking and replied that this was sold in March 2008 on eBay for $909.99 to someone in Colorado. He said he was satisfied with the price, considering that it was a wakizashi and that it had some shortcomings. He agreed to upload the photos again. After seeing them, I can assure the current owner that he has no reason to be concerned about its being confiscated in Japan as potential National Treasure. Kaji

Forgot to add the URL: http://www.houko.com/00/01/S25/214.HTM

I found the text of the Bunkazai hogoho~ (Cultural Treasures Preservation Act) which deals with so-called National Treasures. Nowhere does it say anything about the government "confiscating" such an item. If it is privately owned, then the owner has certain obligations, but he is free to sell it, although the government has the first option on buying it. So-called National Treasures include not only objects such as swords, but buildings (temples, shrines, churches), areas of exceptional scenery, and persons holding rare skills and talents. It would be a rather difficult task for a democratic government to "confiscate" them all. I am still not very clear about how an object gets the designation, but from what I can see, one has to really work hard through the paper work, bureaucratic red tape, and series of petitions through various committees to obtain such a designation. There is very little chance of the government noticing and snatching up a sword among tens of thousands floating around in Japan and calling it a National Treasure. Kaji

Not directly related to the current discussion but I thought this may be an interesting bit of information. It is possible to buy and sell a National Treasure sword in Japan. According to Iida Koendo website ( http://www.iidakoendo.com/info/kaitori4.htm ), a national-treasure sword owned by a private party can be sold, but a government permit must first be sought. And the government has the first option on it. If the government issues an intent of non-purchase, then the private sale can proceed. The same applies to those designated as Juyo Bunkazai (Important Cultural Asset). As for exporting a national treasure out of Japan, I have not been able to find a clear answer. A government website shows procedures for obtaining an export permit for exhibitions overseas, assuming eventual return of the item to Japan. They make no mention of a "one-way" export permit, so I assume it is a no no. Another point of curiosiry. How does a sword get the National-Treasure designation? I don't think NBTHK routinely screens sword submitted for shinsa for potential candidates. Or do they? Anyone know? Thanks, Kaji

Hi All, Most sellers on eBay hype what they sell, so I don't see this seller as being too out of ordinary. But one thing I don't quite follow. He says: "I would say that this blade is national treasure grade and that is why I will not send it through Shinsa." Why not submit a national treasure grade item for shinsa? NBTHK shinsa is beneath the dignity of such a fine piece? Kaji

Hi All, It may be an antique samurai penis ring, to be used like this modern version. http://www.wherebridesgo.com/Merchant2/ ... -game1.jpg Sorry, couldn't resist.... Kaji

Thank you for the stimulating discussion. When a potential Kotetsu is presented to a panel of evaluators at, say NBTHK, I wonder if all of them are 100% certain of their judgement. Unless you witness a gendaito made and signed in front of your eyes, who can say with 100% certainty whether an item is genuine? I am sure the evaluators, based on their years of experience, are 99% certain, but that leaves 1% doubt. If that is not good enough, then would 99.99% be good enough? Even that leaves 0.01% doubt. Okay, how about 99.9999% certainty? That is mathematically as good as 100%, but still leaves 0.0001% doubt. I am suggesting that we may get as close as possible to the 100% certainty but never to an absolute certainty. And this is where I see the infinite shades of grey. Sorry, I tend to argue for the argument's sake. A current NBTHK paper is as good as 100% certainty in the market place, at least for now , and that should be good enough. Kaji

Honestly, I cannot tell a genuine Kotetsu from a fake one, provided that they are not the obvious fakes. The evidence in this case, I am afraid, is entirely circumstantial. A genuine Kotetsu should have a good NBTHK paper and not a paper from an obsecure organization. It costs time and money to have a blade papered by NBTHK, but given the high value of a genuine Kotetsu, no dealer/owner in Japan would hesitate to get that paper. And with a NBTHK paper, a Kotetsu blade should easily sell in Japan for $20,000 or more. The lack of a reliable paper, in my opinion, speaks volumes. Those who are trained in the art (and the science) of kantei would have the eyes to judge whether the blade is genuine, but for the rest of us, we have to rely on the papers issued by experts. So, lacking a reliable paper, it would be safe to assume that it is gimei. But debating whether a signature is genuine often misses the point in evaluating swords, I believe. Asking whether a blade is genine is asking a black or white question, a dichotomy of genuine versus fake with nothing inbetween. Instead, I see the swords as somewhat of a continuum, resting somewhere within the infinate shades of grey. So the question I ask is where in this continuum the sword is located. An obvious ww-ii Showato blade with Kotetsu inscribed in an ammateurish hand would be located toward the "fake" end, whereas a nice shinto blade with all the characteristics of Kotetsu and a signature that conforms to his styles would be placed near the "genuine" end, and so on. In my opinion, the one we are discussing here sits on the better side of the middle, in the $5,000 to $10,000 range. It is good enough to give the owner the bragging right to say that s/he has a Kotetsu in his/her collection, yet it didn't cost him/her as much as purchasing one with a good paper. I am sure the buyer is happy, and no doubt so is the seller. I think that's all that matters in the end. I personally prefer mumei blades in good condition over blades with famous signatures. No gimei among the mumei, and you are assured an attribution when submitting it for shinsa. Mumei blades can often be purchased for less than signed ones, and if attributed to a popular school, you end up with a very marketable blade. And best of all, you are freed from the fake/genuine debate! Kaji

I am not familiar with the market trend of Juyo blades. Most of them are out of my reach, so what I cannot have, I shall not see and desire. Apparently, though, they are moving. At one sword auction (for dealers only) late last year, I saw six Juyo blades change hand in one morning, ranging from 2,000,000 yen to 6,000,000 yen. I don't know whether the prices realized were higher or lower than expected. And since this was a wholesale auction, I don't know if they were eventually retailed and at what prices. Juyo blades vary greatly in their prices, and my feeling is that, once you get into the very high end of the market, their prices don't change much. The number of people who can buy them are very limited, and those rich folks who buy them don't need to ask how much. The juyo blades on the lower end, ones selling for 2,000,000 or less, however, may be affected by the general economic trends since they are within reach of those of us in the middle class. When the sword prices skyrocketed during the bubble years, that was a mixed blessing. It was nice to know that the swords I owned were worth so much, but at the same time I could not afford to buy any more because they were too expensive. Now that the prices have come down, they are more affordable, but then I hesitate because the pieces I own aren't worth much and lost lots of money on them. So to anyone who is thinking of Nihonto as an investment: You will be better off putting the money in your bank! Buy swords only if you are willing to treat them like beautiful women -- you can love them and appreciate them but have to pay dearly for the privilege. Oh, and, if not handled carefully, you can seriously get hurt. Kaji

Hi Paul, You obviously like this blade (I do too!), or else you wouldn't be considering it. Your liking it is the most important part of the purchase, and what other people say about matters little in the end. As for the fair price, that's hard to pin down. Like any fine art or antique object, it is worth as much as (or as little as) someone is willing to pay for it. If it is worth 800,000 yen to you, then that is a fair price. But if you are not sure, then you can always try to negotiate the price down so that you will at least get some satisfaction from knowing that you had some discount. I was recently in a respected old-time dealer in Tokyo who has been in business for four generations. I was looking at a koto Gassan in koshirae with a NBTHK hozon paper, and the price tag said 700,000 yen. No sooner than I started asking about it, the proprieter said "We offer 10% discount for paying cash." (Paying cash, in Japan, means not opting for their layaway plan.) This reflects the current state of sword business in Japan, I believe. Dealers are hurting for sales and are willing to discount, even at an established and reputable store. I didn't have enough money to purchase the Gassan, even with the discount, and that too speaks for the current state of the economy in Japan. Dealers have to make a living, and like any other merchandisers, they have to mark up their goods heavily to account for their expenses and slow moving inventory. But at the same time, buyers too should bargain for the best price possible because their funds are limited too. When the two parties agree on a price and are satisfied, then that to me is the fair price. Good luck, Kaji

Sorry to hear about eBay troubles. Many crooks out there. Here is another Chinese hijacker. I notified the website where photos are linked: http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZdelicate5166 Seller not responding to my questions, very suspicious. I hear eBay in UK banned sword listings? They should instead ban sword listings FROM China under "antique." Kaj

Historian probably put a large price to attract attention. No body take notice at $1.00. I thought EMS was like registered mail, very secure and traceable. Now I am worried about shipping expensive items overseas. Any body here experience EMS theft? Kaj

Wow, Good to see that this board is going multi-lingual! Here's my two yen's worth: 日本刀工辞典ã«ã¤ã„ã¦ã§ã™ãŒã€è—¤ä»£æ¾é›„æ°è‡ªèº«ãŒç™ºè¡Œã—ãŸè‹±èªžã®ç´¢å¼•ãŒã‚ã‚‹ã¨èžãã¾ã—ãŸã€‚何方ã‹ãŠæŒã¡ã§ãªã„ã§ã—ょã†ã‹ã€‚ I've heard of an English index issued by Fujishiro Matsuo himself. Has anyone seen or have it? I wonder if it is copyrighted. If not, that would be something the members of this board can benefit from. Would someone care to scan it and post it? ã©ã†ã‚‚〠Thanks! é›å†¶å¹³ Kaji

Here is my experience with JSA and other Japanese auctions. JSA is not an open auction site like ebay. It is a business run by a sowd dealer in order to sell his swords and his customers'. I tried bidding on several items, and I think it is rigged. A sword is listed over and over without a single bid, and then as soon as I bid on it, several other bids come jumping in to push up the price. So I can never buy a sword on the first bid price, even if it was unsold for so long until I put the first bid. BIDDERS is more realistic, although most of the sellers are dealers. Only problem with the sellers there is that if they don't like the price, they will cancel the auction, even just a few minutes before closing, saying, "Sorry, price is too low." Bidders let them do that without any penalty, so this is not a real auction. YAHOO doesn't allow real swords but many sellers, mostly dealers, sneak one in for a short auction, hoping the auction gets a buyer before Yahoo takes it off. Like cat and mouse game. It's a good place to find non-blade items like koshirae and kodogu, but don't expect top quality items there. Lots of gunto parts and militaria stuff. :| About the prices, since so many Japanese dealers now sell on ebay and Japanese shoppers buy on ebay, and at the same time so many gaijin-san shop on Yahoo and Bidders now too, I don't think there is that much of price difference. The power of the Internet has reduced the price differences, I think. It wasn't so before. In 2002 I bought an average katana in koshirae for 8-man yen (about $600 then) from sword auction. I put it on eBay and sold it for $2,500. Ah, darn good business, I thought. Doesn't happen any more. If I buy a sword on JSA and put it on eBay, I don't think I will get my money back. I tried to find a bargain on eBay and sell it in Japan, but that is not doing so well either. You get what you pay for, good or bad, whether in Japan or on eBay, I think. Happy online shopping! Kaj

Holding the nakago vertical -- or horizontal, keeping it constant anyway -- is an effective way of visualizing the differences in sori styles. http://www.geocities.com/fugin999/blade_samurai83.jpg What you call it is not that important, since we are all experts here, as long as the visual message is accurately conveyed. Kaj

In the past, gunto blades with stamps were automatically rejected. But recently they changed their attitude and began to recognize that some of gunto blades are worthy of preservation. So the blades are of course inspected to ensure that they are traditionally made, but now even some questionable ones are allowed to pass if housed in a complete gunto koshirae in good condition. (According to one dealer who imports many gunto from the US) Kaj

Blades with "showa" stamps are registered and sold in Japan. Here's one by Kanetomo, a Rikugun Jumei Tosbo: http://samurai-nippon.net/951/ My understanding of the stamp is that it is a mark of passing certain quality control inspection and not necessarily an indication of how it was made, and the stamp does appear on both gendaito and machine-made showato. So, you need to judge the blade, not the markings. This, apparently, is what the Japanese authorities do also. Kaj

I've known showa22 for many years (not personally but as a buyer), and I've found his auctions to be straight forward. He offers "you get what you see" auctions where it is up to the buyer to determine the price. If you think you paid too much for his goods, then that's your problem for not paying attention to the details. He describes the items as they are without any hype. He must have an active source in Japan because he manages to come up with one "Kamikaze" tanto after another. They don't come around easily. He reads the demands on eBay and supplies them accordingly, and that, to me, is a sign of a smart eBay dealer. He is in it for a long haul, not for quick profit, and that makes him a reliable eBay dealer. He gets my two thumbs up, without any hesitation. Kaj

Made in China. The inscriptions are Chinese copies of random Japanese characters, or their attempt at something that may look and sound Japanese. The name on the tsuba is probably the original but the tsuba may be a cast copy. Kaj

One possible scenario: The paper is for a mumei blade, and some old NBTHK papers are unreliable. Owner submits it for shinsa and obtains a new NBTHK paper attributing it to someone else. No need to keep two contradicting papers, so he dumps the old one. And, as with anything else sword-related, there's a market for anything provided that the price is right. Kaj

If an unshortened nakago is called ubu nakago, then what would you call a nakago lacking a mekugi ana? Virgin nakago? I looked in my sword dictionary, but it couldn't give me the term. LOL http://cgi.ebay.com/Japanese-Samurai-Sw ... dZViewItem Kaj

The seller replied as follows when questioned about the bohi : : ------------------------------------------ Hello, The sword is the same as paper of NBTHK. This sword carved HI after examination of NBTHK by a teacher of Japanese traditional kendo. I sell this sword for low price. Thank you, Mitsuhiro. ------------------------------------------

Looks like "Yoshimasa," one of WW-II Seki smiths.