Brian

I was wondering about that. Some of those blades continued to cut hard items for a while after getting one or a few hagire. I would have thought they would have snapped soon after a hagire. I was wondering if there is a Japanese word for a chip that goes through the hamon? I assume by hagire they meant a hairline crack, although I would have expected deep chips in some of those cases instead of hagire. Just wondering if what we call a hagire could be in this case a deep chip or nick that is fatal..or am I mistaken completely? They didn't mention any chips at all in those tests? Brian

Dr B, I daresay there is a world of difference between them once compared. This should demonstrate closer. Pay attention to the "flame" and scales. As Ford said, it isn't terrible metalwork, just not up to the level of expected quality on a blade of this caliber or of a decent horimono. Brian

He isn't a fraud or anything..he is a decent seller afaik. The thing to remember is that Japanese sellers nowdays are well aware of how we Westerners are buying low to medium class stuff, and they are all taking full advantage of that. The stuff we see on eBay is mostly the stuff that isn't easy to flog in Japan. Items that are mediocre to fair, items that are gimei (they know we all believe that maybe, just maybe, one shoshinmei slips through the cracks) and items that have done the rounds there and aren't easy to sell. There is tons of low to medium class swords and fittings in Japan. They don't sell easily because it is so easy to verify there, and there are so many others items that are better. But it is easy to sell these to the West, and with the internet, it is a simple process. Make no mistake...we are a great market for this stuff. It doesn't make them bad sellers at all (some of them are very nice to deal with indeed) but we are feeding this phenomenon and it isn't at all surprising that there are more and more Japanese sellers online. It's not like here in the West where a sleeper can sit on a table untouched since the war. In Japan these guys know the market and list the items that would sit forever on a dealer's table. Note that I am indeed generalizing, and not every dealer is like this, but it is what we see predominantly. Brian

I read that thread as it unfolded, and it is an amazing find. Also a brilliant observation by Morita san. The story is fascinating and I hope the sword will be preserved and be researched. While not for the strict Nihonto fans, for the Japanese militaria guys and Japanese researchers, it is a great story..especially watching it unfold. Thanks for sharing it here Carlo. Brian

Hi Ford, You are refering to these "carving marks" that have been left? They do appear very rough and close-ups don't do the horimono any justice in this case. Would this be by an amateur horimono carver, or by a metalworker that doesn't have experience with Nihonto, or just a total faker? Brian

Name please As you said. A dealer in Japan with every chance and opportunity to submit something for papers is not going to list a Kotetsu on eBay, or even sell it if there is even the slightest chance it is shoshin. Brian

Stephen, It's purely due to the fact that these are swords. Therefore they need to be able to be used as swords. A sword with a hagire will break in battle. With kizu, it is a bit ugly, but still a sword. Even though these are now art, they must still retain their original function or they are just pretty pieces of metal. With really rare and top class stuff, for the reasons that they are simply that important and are representative examples, fatal flaws are overlooked. But for anything less, there's Mastercard :D (Sorry, could't resist...but it does show that for anything less than the top works, you can go out and buy a better example, so lesser condition ones aren't as important and flaws aren't tolerated. But for the very best, fatal flaws will have to do, as there isn't much chance of buying something better as an example) Brian

I am sure Jacques is looking for the rest of the text on the right too? This looks like a very interesting and early "analysis" of sugata? Any info on the source? Brian

Hi (Please sign with a name) This thread might be quite relevant, especially the last 2 pages: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3341 Regards, Brian

I agree with the choices so far, bearing in mind that you need to choose a sword that you like, and not that we pick for you. Art is a very personal thing, and you want to buy what attracts you. We don't want to advise you "go for this one" and you don't like it later. However you are doing the recommended thing by asking before buying, so I guess opinions count. Always spend a little more than you wanted to. You don't want to think back in a year and say "I wish I had spent the extra $250 or so" I still like that Yasutsuna wakizashi a lot. But I like the Ichimonjo style, and it has a lot going for it. Tsuruta san has guaranteed the condition and integrity of the sword, but not sure if he is guaranteeing the signature? I would check on that if you decide on this blade. The upside of the e-sword Kunihide is the koshirae, which adds a good $500 or so. I think it is a good deal and has a good polish with thick and wide nioi-guchi as Jean stated, and looks very healthy. I don't think you would go wrong with either. As Stephen mentioned, Aoi might be prepared to deal on the price. Their Yen price I am sure takes into account that it is sold locally and doesn't include overseas shipping, paperwork etc. But you can try and work a deal with them. The e-sword one still needs shipping added? Overall, one of these 2 sounds good to me. Maybe others have a different opinion? Regards, Brian

Brian

Hi John, Surprised there weren't more answers posted. I guess there are more of us sword guys than fittings guys here. Hopefully some of the tosogu guys can chip in and convert...umm...enlighten us :D I did find a good article from Ted Tenold here that says: Regards, Brian

I hope I am not overstepping my bounds here, but looking at thse pics just makes me want to dust everything. I find it sad that there are amazing collections out there that are packed away in storage rooms and with the "laws" will probably remain there forever. There are some great items there, that receive next to no attention. These "benefactors" didn't have the knowledge to consign these items to a future of degradation and they belong elsewhere where they can be appreciated properly and cared for. (Yes..I would volunteer gladly :D ) It is my (personal) experience that whenever items like this are packed away for storage, every year a few items "go missing" out the back door. Even here, the military museum has a greater number of fine items packed away in closets than on display, and a lot has gone missing and into private collections never to be seen again. Brian

I think you may have it Moriyama san, that does resemble it down to the laquered-looking leather, and improvised grip. Brian

Frank, Same one Nigel is talking about here? viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3354 I have no idea what that sword is from the pics. Might be some or other chokuto, but the mounts aren't right. Hmm. Brian

Nigel, I would contact the Uk Token Societies, see if they can get involved. Particularly a call to Clive Sinclair? Maybe Ian B. here can assist? I have a good idea that this might be the same collection in the pics in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=9&t=3347 Some lovely looking stuff...but not well displayed. The yari all look to have the same poles too...wonder if they were redone at some time to match? Some of those swords look intriguing too...and I have no idea what that middle one is that Frank was asking about. Brian

Thank you for clarifying that Nakamura san, good to know. I must add that website and yours to the links list this weekend. Anyone have any other links that need to be added? Brian

Hi Yoshii (Please sign with a first name) The website is registered in Japan, the seller has 21 positives on eBay, and the photos look legit, so i would say they are ok, and another small dealer doing mainly online business. I haven't dealt with them before, but would guess they are ok to deal with. Brian

Frank, Might help if we know where you saw that odd item. Without seeing the blade, I have no idea. I assume since it was behind glass, that it was in a museum somewhere? Are you certain it was Japanese and not some other Asian country? Brian

it looks, to me Brian, as though you're biased toward the informed buyer. No one is unbiased if they have an interest...it's oxymoronic Well duh Of course when I said I am a buyer not a seller, and not biased...I was meaning that I am not personally baised (in favour of sellers) Brian

Frank, I think there are a number of inaccuracies there that have to be addressed. A lot of this is just convenience to (mainly) Westerners (very much like the Gokkaden) that don't actually exist. It helps us to put things into nice and neat little boxes. A Katana is a Japanese sword, which we have started to use for a blade longer than 60.6cm. Tachi aren't identified by size. If I quote from Paul Martin here: Chisakatana is also not governed only by length, but by how it is mounted and intended to be used. Yoroi-doshi are tanto...only they are thicker and a bit shorter, and made for piercing armour. They are defined by looking at the shape, style and mounting to determine if that was the intended use. Basically what we use is: Tanto: Blade shorter than 30.3cm Wakizashi: between 30.3cm and 60.6cm Katana: Blade longer than 60.6cm The rest are sub-divisions of those classifications based on the way it was mounted, carried or used. This is a good article on the subject: http://www2.una.edu/takeuchi/DrT_Jpn_Cu ... of_wak.htm Many of the terms we use nowdays aren't strictly correct, but they help us to speak about the subject. Hence Gendaito for hand forged, Showato for machine made, and calling genuine hand-made items Nihonto. I guess we even call Naginata and yari Nihonto, even though strictly speaking they aren't. There is no real guide to placing tanto, wakizashi, katana, tachi, hamidashi, aikuchi, naginata, chisakatana, uchigatana, yari, odachi, chokuto, nagamaki etc etc into neat little boxes. I guess we just make the call based on what we see. Regards, Brian

Alan, I don't have any problem with you expressing your view, I'm just posing a few counterpoints. A lot of this is all theoretical and doesn't always happen. I have seen many sellers post on their auctions "I have been told that this might be a fake" and otherwise, so we can't generalise. Then there is the case of allowing buyers a fair shake at a good deal. What about allowing sellers a fair shake at a decent informed sale? I can't always translate the swords I am interested in, and will ask someone here what it says. I would rather the seller post it if he knows, even if it sparks interest in others. Also, there are many sellers that are exactly like that "little old lady with the garage sale" There are a surprising number of people who sell their inherited items or clear out their homes online. Who are we to say that their story isn't correct? You said it yourself...when an opinion is given on an auction, it is up to us (informed) people to assertain if the info is correct, if it is gimei and if it has flaws. So the info is only worth the source, and since we don't know the source, how can people have an advantage and influence the auction too much? And when it does turn out to be a nice item, and it goes higher, then I think the seller has gotten a fair deal. We don't lose anything when we don't win...we lose sometimes when we do. You say "I only seek an honest chance of bidding" and I say that sellers also have every right to an honest chance of getting a fair sale. Bear in mind I am not a Nihonto seller either..I am a buyer, so I am not biased here. Anyways..it's all just different opinions really. This is why the big guys rightfully tell us not to buy sword stuff on eBay Regards, Brian

Well here is Jacques' control mei vs the Aoi one for comparisson. Can anyone verify with Tsuruta san that if he suspects a mei he writes "unverified" and if that isn't there then he has a good idea it is shoshin? Would help us all. Brian Edit to add: The yakidashi, yasurime, boshi and hamon stlye seem to be a close match though. There seem to be natural variances in his mei too. Not sure what conclusion I would come to.

If you were still in Japan..then done deal. But China? Naaaah! Brian

Well, how about I take the opposing viewpoint? :D This is all about ethics. It is the same as grabbing that Shinkai from the little old lady who has her husband's sword that he brought back from the war and has it on a garage sale at $200. You either are the type that grabs it, or one that tells her it is a good sword and maybe pays her more than she asked. That is for everyone to decide for themselves. Expecting to see and grab that "sleeper" on eBay is a fantasy that persists. I don't believe that sellers are obligated to research every item they sell. The market decides the price, and those "snipe bids" are a fact of life. Every auction nowdays will have snipe bids, and they are seldom the result of someone finding out info they didn't know before. Trust me..if you see that "sleeper" then 100 other guys also saw it. So what if someone tells him what it is. That is life. I have lost out on many deals because someone posted more info that got everyone interested. I just say "Oh well" and write it off. I admire those who take the time to advise people who don't know what they have. That's what this forum is about too. I have seen messages posted on eBay from many of the NMB members here who took the time to help someone with an auction. So someone isn't familiar with Japanese swords and now has one from an estate that he needs to sell off...I don't expect him to do all the research on it first. If someone helps him either on eBay or off it, then good for him. Expecting to "steal" something for a bargain price is perhaps a pipe-dream that we all would love to have happen to us, but shouldn't expect. We all want someone to inform that eBay seller that what he has is a total Chinese fake or his reserve is too high or he is describing it wrong or there are faults that he didn't notice....but we don't want the opposite to happen? Just a differing viewpoint. However I'll stick to mine thanks, and am glad there are still people out there that take the time to help others who don't have the knowledge, either on ebay or here or anywhere. Brian