A new look at an old collection

Hello everybody, this is my first post on this forum.

 

Our family has owned a collection of Japanese swords for several generations. We believe that most of them were collected in the early 1900's by our great-grandfather. I have been tasked with learning more about these swords so we can decide what to do with them. In preparation I've looked through several books, including "The Japanese Sword" by Kanzan Sato and "The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords" by Kokan Nagayama.

 

I'm very impressed by the dedication and attention to detail that is practiced by the followers of this art. I'm also somewhat taken aback by its great complexity. I feel that I could never learn enough to be considered much more than a rank beginner. I have, however, developed a newfound respect for the swords and their makers, and I have at least learned enough to handle these swords with respect.

 

I'd like to learn a lot more about these swords and I'm hoping that some of our forum members will be able to provide some insights. I took a number of photos, but I'm still working on them, so until I can get caught up I can only post a few.

 

I'm sorry to say that the swords have been neglected for quite awhile and some of them are in desperate need of expert care. I apologize for their condition. Hopefully we'll be able to do something about that soon.

 

That said, here are some photos of the first two swords. I haven't taken their measurements yet, but I believe that the first sword is a little under two shaku in length and thus it would be classified as a Wakizashi. You will note that this sword's saya has a pocket for a kozuka (utility knife).

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I understand that there are only 5 attachments allowed per post, so I'll attach the second set of photos to the next post.

 

I'd appreciate any comments that anyone here may have to offer. Thank you.

The second sword is shorter and is more like a long knife. It's saya includes a wari-bashi (chopstick) holder and a set of chopsticks. I didn't find any removable mekugi on these swords, and thus I was unable to view the nakago. (Please let me know if I've made any errors in terminology.)

 

 

 

the second is not a sword but just a utility kit, knife and two chopsticks, jury still out on the first, Tanto/Wak, we need to see the nakago.

Wow, that was a quick reply! I didn't want to disturb the ornaments on the hilt of the first sword, but perhaps the mekugi is underneath the upper ornament?

 

By the way, would you mind telling me how I can size my images so they will be embedded in the post rather than linked? I thought I was following the instructions but only one image came through as intended. I will have a lot more images to post and I would like to get it right.

Wow, that was a quick reply! I didn't want to disturb the ornaments on the hilt of the first sword, but perhaps the mekugi is underneath the upper ornament?

 

By the way, would you mind telling me how I can size my images so they will be embedded in the post rather than linked? I thought I was following the instructions but only one image came through as intended. I will have a lot more images to post and I would like to get it right.

as my friend stephen says we need to see the tang and please be careful in removing the tsuka....if you do not know then leave it or take it to someone who can help you.

best to oil the blade until we can proceed further . first inpressions i would say its a cut down wakizashi remounted but i will wait to the jury returns

the small pin with lady on it should un screw would be my guess.

Hello Dana,

 

So nice to hear from a beginner who has already done some homework before posting .

 

[EDIT]. The mekugi would be under the smaller, circular menuki (sometimes seen on aikuchi koshirae like this, when there is no handle wrap). Unfortunately I don't know if one or both of them are attached to or form part of the mekugi proper, or if they are just glued to the same (rayskin); I don't have personal experience with that kind of "concealing" menuki, so you may want to wait until someone who does comes along. Take care because the menuki look like the nicest part of that package in its current condition, especially the full-size menuki.

 

Like Stephen said, the blade is a bit opaque right now; red lacquer in the hi is not promising though. That's done often for stylistic reasons on yari (spears), but on a tanto/wakizashi it's much more likely to conceal flaws in a low-grade blade.

 

Looking forward to seeing some more examples! If that's the worst condition any of your items are in, then they should be salvageable with expert restoration, but the trick will be figuring out which if any of them would be worth the expense and time.

 

Oh, and PS - length is measured from the machi (where the spine meets the habaki) to the tip, it doesn't include the handle. So when you say "a little under two shaku," I tentatively assume that's actually longer than this blade; it doesn't look quite that long to me. Feel free to report lengths in centimeters.

OK, I will go back and give it a better look, plus I'll take some accurate measurements. The pins and other ornaments are quite beautiful and they are in particularly good condition, so I don't want to cause them any damage whatsoever. If it doesn't come apart easily then I will take it to an expert. However, the collection is quite far from here, so this could take awhile.

 

I think there is some writing on the knife blade, by the way. See the photo.

 

And yes, unfortunately some of the other swords are in much worse condition. There are three longer swords that are definitely Japanese, plus some other swords and daggers that I have been unable to identify. Some definitely look European (and quite old) and there are several very weird wavy-bladed swords that might be Malaysian or something, or maybe they're just old stage props. I understand that this forum is just for Nihonto, so I will try to stick to that topic.

 

Anyway, I'll get some more photos up soon. Thanks very much for all of the responses so far.

Hello,

 

the small pin with lady on it should un screw would be my guess.

 

If there is a similar sort of ornament (I see there is) directly on the opposite side from the lady figure, then it will very likely be the pin which will either be a threaded or compression type fitting. I've encountered both types, but cannot recall at the moment if the threaded kind was L or R hand thread, but do remember that it unscrewed easily.

 

 

 

The pins and other ornaments are quite beautiful and they are in particularly good condition, so I don't want to cause them any damage whatsoever. If it doesn't come apart easily then I will take it to an expert.

 

yes, don't force anything.

Dana, The smaller circular ornaments will form the heads of the mekugi which will be of copper. One half will be a tube into which the second half fits. How they are held together varies. Sometimes there is a screw thread, often 'left handed'. You will have to tentatively try and unscrew the two parts twisting one way then the other until you know the direction to turn. An alternative was for one part to be solid but having a transverse hole through it with a small piece of leather through the hole. This gives a friction fit that should allow the two parts to just pull apart. Be very careful since sometimes the solder holding the head to the pin can give way leaving you with a minor disaster. If it will not come out easily I would leave well alone and let an expert take it apart for you.

Ian Bottomley

Dana,

Look in the How-To section for info on the pic dimensions to prevent pics from linking. There are max sizes that you are exceeding.

Just got home, and only here for a minute, so didn't look at all the pics in detail, but just for the info the style of knife with chopsticks like that is usually from Nepal or sometimes Korea. I suspect this one is Nepalese or from Tibet.

 

Brian

Mr. Bottomley and Franco to the rescue.

 

...Some definitely look European (and quite old) and there are several very weird wavy-bladed swords that might be Malaysian or something, or maybe they're just old stage props. I understand that this forum is just for Nihonto, so I will try to stick to that topic....

For non-nihonto, I invite you to post at myArmoury.com, which has a broad world focus with a special strength in European arms.

I'm back. Sorry about the delay, I had to work on other projects.

 

I'm posting three more sets of sword photos, but I'm sorry to say that I was unable to remove the tsuka from any of them, so I don't have any nakago (tang) photos at all. The mekugi were easy to remove, and I have the correct tools for that, but in every case the tang was firmly stuck. I guess I'll have to take them to an expert who has the correct tsuka removal tools and techniques. After I get the tsuka removed then I'll be able to post the appropriate photos.

 

These swords are currently being stored in a rural area, so I'll have to take them to an expert to be examined. Thus, I'll be both transporting and storing them, and this causes me some security concerns.

 

Here's a question that I would like to see answered if at all possible:

Is it possible to tell, from the photos and descriptions that I have provided thus far, whether any of these swords might be "at risk" of being particularly valuable? If so then I really wouldn't want to store those particular swords at my house or transport them around town alone, so I'll have to come up with a more secure way of dealing with them.

 

I realize, of course, that you would need to see the nakago before drawing any firm conclusions, but is it possible to make an educated guess?

 

I'll be happy to hear any comments about any of this. Thanks!

 

Dana P

(4 attachments to this post, more to follow)

 

PS: In the near future I'm going to be posting the photos of the other swords (currently unidentified, but I'm pretty sure they don't belong on this forum) on the myArmoury.com site as suggested by Gabriel Lebec. As soon as I get them up I will provide a link here for those who are interested.

Here is the next sword, "P4".

Here is "P5". Thanks again.

Dana:

 

I wouldn't be too afraid that someone would break into your house to steal them for re-sale. Maybe as a weapon, which is not good but until you can get the tsuka off the second one, I wouldn't bother increasing your insurance.

 

Do you have any idea where and when they were collected?

Hello Dana,

 

P3

Saya with mon, well wrapped tsuka ito, but broken

second Menuki (taped one) is in the wrong side

Vert de gris over the tsuba and fuchi

Nice habaki maybe in shiakudo.

Bo hi

but I can't see the boshi

 

P4

O kissaki. Boshi can be seen with a kaeri.

Koi guchi broken

well wrapped tsuka ito,

Vert de gris over the tsuba and fuchi.

Shinogi look high

 

both in bad polish condition

 

I am also interested to see nakago of P3 & P4

 

P5

not of what it is. I don't think it is wery old.

 

Sébastien

Dana, Sword P3 appears to have every chance of being good quality. The mounts are en-suite and are decorated with the Tokugawa kamon. The Tokugawa family being the Shoguns of course. I'm definitely not saying this sword has anything to do with the shoguns - they were a prolific bunch with sub-groups in different parts of the country so there were plenty of them. They also had numerous hangers-on but at least the mounts look very reasonable to me. The habaki, decorated as it is with a dragon, is a nice touch that cost money when it was made for the blade. I would be disappointed if that blade did not turn out to be of at least reasonable quality.

P4 Again a better that average mounted katana that apart from the obvious corrosion problems may well turn out to have a reasonable blade. Difficult to say any more without seeing more of the blade and tang.

P5 is best described as a bit of nonsense made to sell to the tourists. Nice piece of rayskin on the hilt though.

Congratulations. You have some nice things but cleaning and re-patination is going to be a tricky job.

Ian Bottomley

Thanks very much for the highly informative responses thus far. I have to admit that I was kind of baffled by Sword P5. Some parts definitely look good, but the blade appears to be cheap and unsophisticated even to my untrained eye. Old tourist junk? Sounds like a reasonable explanation.

 

I'll be focusing my efforts on the other swords, specifically the first one I posted (call it P1), P3 and P4, and I'll be posting photos of each tang as soon as I can get the tsuka off. I'll also be taking proper measurements.

 

I'll also try to take some better photos, as my current batch didn't turn out very well. Not enough light! Not properly focused! (I had to edit them to make them viewable, but they would have been much better if I had shot them properly in the first place). So, along with everything else I'm also learning about sword photography.

 

I'm not even going to think about what the restoration might cost. Yikes!

 

Dana P

Hi Dana

Some considerations on Your blades:

The first Tanto seems an average blade and good menuki;

The second knife seems much Tibetan than Japanese ( I never seen this kind of knife in Japan, but they are common in Tibet and Ladakh);

P3 has a nice mounting with a beautiful habaki and this may show a good blade inside (obviously we must see the tang);

P4 has an average mounting

P5 is a very strange sword, with a shape (sugata) never seen in Japan, so it is probabily a touristic gift made at the end of nineteenth century.

All the blades need a professional polish that can be quite expensive

For those who are interested, I have posted photos of the other five bladed weapons at this site: http://www.myarmoury.com/talk/viewtopic.php?t=17655&sid=8157d19e73074f1c4d7d57d288efafda

 

Thanks again,

Dana P

as my friend stephen says we need to see the tang and please be careful in removing the tsuka....if you do not know then leave it or take it to someone who can help you.

best to oil the blade until we can proceed further . first inpressions i would say its a cut down wakizashi remounted but i will wait to the jury returns

You mention oiling the blade. I know that the blades on these weapons are very sophisticated and that I need to have each one polished by a professional who is able to determine the most appropriate treatment for each particular blade, but in the meantime is there a recommended oil I can use that won't cause any harm? I want to stop (or at least slow down) any further corrosion until I can get these swords taken care of.

Dana:

 

I wouldn't be too afraid that someone would break into your house to steal them for re-sale. Maybe as a weapon, which is not good but until you can get the tsuka off the second one, I wouldn't bother increasing your insurance.

 

Do you have any idea where and when they were collected?

I'm sorry Brian, but too many generations have passed and most of the details have been lost. We're assuming that they were all collected between approximately 1900 and 1930 during our great-grandfather's travels to the Far East, but even this is not certain.

 

Dana P

Hello Dana,

 

Just saw you updated this (and posted a few interesting kris, kindjal etc. on myArmoury). Everyone's already said more or less what can be said at this point, but I wanted to add just a few points.

 

P3: New wrap for the tsuka is a relatively affordable restoration, but don't unwrap what's left of the old tsukaito before handing it to a professional; after all, it would be nice to reproduce the particular style of this tsukamaki (it's a slightly "upscale" style).

 

P5: Wacky... despite being very poor quality I personally think it's an interesting piece for its especial unusualness, even beyond the standard Meiji-era tourist pieces.

 

Re: maintenance, at this point a certain amount of damage is already done and as far as the blades are concerned, merely keeping them in a dry clean environment will be a step in the right direction. Plain old pharmacy-bought mineral oil works fine as an oxygen barrier. The traditional "choji" oil can be bought easily from a number of sword dealers, and would be the recommendation if you ever get any of your blades polished, but in their current condition mineral oil should suffice. You don't need much, just put a few drops on a cloth and give the blade a thin coating.

Dana ,

the second is kind of dinner knife from West China.