Kiyomaro school

[cabowen]

Many, if not most, were done by Akitada as I recall....

[kunitaro]

Dear Cris,

 

Thank you for mentioning Akihide.

This is one of his work on Shinsinto sword.

 

作陽幕下士細川正守

Sakuyo Bakkashi Hosokawa Masamori

 

応増田正久好精鍛

Masuda Masahisa (no) konomi (ni) ouzi Seiren(su)

 

昭和三十年越後国三条昭忠源雪房謹彫之

shouwa 30 nen Echigo (no) kuni Sanjo Akitada Yukifusa tsutsushinde kore (wo) horu

[kunitaro]

And This is a work of Akidata on Kurihara Nobuhide's Osoraku-zukuri Tanto

 

信秀　Nobuhide

万延元年十一月日

Mannen Gan-nen 11 gatsubi

 

昭和四十二年三月日・虎徹底彫越後三条住昭忠彫之

Shouwa 42nen 3 gatsubi Kotesubori Echigo Sanjo (no) ju Akitada kore(wo) Horu

[kunitaro]

This is a Nobuhide's work

 

Ama no Uzume no Mikoto

and Holly mirror

on Hirazukuri Tanto, Osaka-uchi (made in Osaka)

 

Nobuhide's Hori is very shallow,

but, very sharp line and smooth surface.

and He understood the reflection of the steel.

This blade Bizen-den has Utsuri (as you see)

with old Sashikomi-togi.

His work is almost 3D.

 

One of his master piece.

This Tanto is staying in Sanjo/Niigata now.

[kunitaro]

One more master piece.

 

Signed : Kurihara Kenji Nobuhide Hori do-saku

Bunkyu Gan-nen 12 gatsubi

[steve0]

One more master piece.

 

Signed : Kurihara Kenji Nobuhide Hori do-saku

Bunkyu Gan-nen 12 gatsubi

 

kunitaro

 

Thank you for posting such wonderful examples, they are simply gorgeous.

[kunitaro]

Most of Nobuhide's sword with original Hori are Bizen-den or Nioi-deki.

 

Which is meaning that doing Yakiire lower temperature for Blade with Horimono.

 

so, we can think that Nobuhide was doing Horimono before Yakiire.

(curving normal steel is much easier than after quenched )

He was doing Yakiire with lower temperature to prevent breaking the blade.

Not He chose Bizen-den blade to give Hori-mono after sword is done.

 

What do you think ??

[k morita]

Kunitaro san,

No sensei, please use "san". :D

 

Horimono more shines well,doing Horimono before Yakiire.

Great book, [A Study of Kurihara Nobuhide]pub 1976.

栗原信秀の研究

[kunitaro]

Morita san,

 

Thank you for follow up.

It is pity that i don't have the book with me now.

That is great book published by NBTHK Niigata branch,

so, are they mentioning about Horimono and yakiire ?

 

PS : [A Study of Kurihara Nobuhide] is great Translation !!

I was translating [Kurihara Nobuhide no Kenkyu]

[Brian]

This is the first time I have heard of the theory of doing horimono before yakiire. Considering the risks when doing the hardening...would it have been worth all the risk to spend that much time doing horimono in case the sword had a hagire during yakiire?

I had always assumed that horimono came after the foundation polish, but I am open to correction.

 

Brian

[kunitaro]

 

Horimono work is meaning "Chiseling work"

Polishing Horimono could be done by smith or polisher after Yakiire.

[Eric H]

Gassan Sadatoshi performing Horimono after yakiire, since chiseling is executed after the ground polish and after minute examination of the blade by the smith. The Horimono is chiseled in the kawagane, the tempered part of the blade remain untouched, finally the „mei“ is added by chisel work.

I think this is the traditional way of making Horimono.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=swNIC0ZuJ44

 

Eric

[bmoore1322]

@ Eric

 

He makes it look so easy, thanks for sharing that, beautiful workmanship, truly an art form.

 

I wonder what he would charge to have an sword built for someone.

 

Brian

[kunitaro]

This is a work of Gassan Sadatoshi

 

Tanto

Yamato no kuni Gassan Sadatoshi Hori-dosaku

Heisei 7 nen 8 gatsubi

[cabowen]

I have never heard of carving the horimono before yaki-ire either....I see several problems that would or could develop from that approach but I suppose it is possible....Very interesting.

[kunitaro]

interesting ? me too !!!

 

so, I just mailed to one of my teacher mr.Toyama Noboru who is part of the Book [A Study of Nobuhide] the best and biggest collector and researcher of Nobuhide in Japan. He made a few very good article of Nobuhide at NBTHK Tokenbijutsu.

He is 3rd generation of biggest distributor of Edged tools based on Sanjo city.

so Nobuhide is his Local smith.

He is one of the experts of Japanese steel industry as well.

and I just received his reply.

attaching a copy bellow. very exciting !!

 

『信秀の研究には、特にそのようなことは書いてありませんが、私か刃物を扱う商売ですので、説明させて頂きますと、

昔は鋼より堅いハイスも、もっと硬い超硬という材質もありませんでしたので、彫をするには焼入れ前にしたはずです。

手間を掛けて彫をした素材を焼入れする時には、失敗したくないという意識がどうしても出るはずで、少し温度を甘めにする・・・、

それが自身彫をする人の心情ではないかと思います。

ですから、彫身の刀に、時々刃が沈み心の作品があるのだと思います。

そう考えると、彫があって刃が冴えた刀こそ名刀とおもうべきだと思います。

ただ、近年、ハイス、超硬という完成した刀に彫れる素材が出て来ましたので、最近の刀工は焼入れ後に彫をするようですよ。』

（とやまのぼる）

******************************************************

It is not mentioning at Nobuhide no Kenkyu, however, Please let me explain from perspective of the edged tool Industry.

In old days, we didn't have the material, harder than tempered steel such as HHS (Hyper-Hard-Steel) or HSS (High-speed Steel/High carbon powder steel) which could carve on tempered steel.

So Carving should be done before Quenching.

 

When Smith do Yakiire with the blade with Hori which took so much work. he unconsciously using weaker temperature preventing mistake....

That is why we see often Shimi(stein.weaker parts) in Ha of the sword with Horimono.

 

Therefore, the blade with Strong bright Ha with Horimono is the Master piece of master pieces.

(Not only Nobuhide sword)

 

Nowadays, we have created Material which could carve on Tempered steel.such as HHS or HSS.

I hear that Modern smith is carving after Quenching.

(Toyama Noboru)

********************************************************

 

The live Comment from Japanese experts.

from Sanjo to the world !!

[Eric H]

So Carving should be done before Quenching.

 

I believe this is a fundamental error. The Horimono is chiseled in the -softer- steel, the Kawagane, apart from the yakiba. It is not influenced by either nioi deki or nie deki. I recall the smith makes a thorough inspection of the blade after quenching and then makes a foundation polish. If Horimono is added before yakiire, what happens with it... as we know the quenching process has remarkable distortion as a result.

 

But I agree, everything is possible, even „to put the cart before the horse“.

 

Eric

[kunitaro]

Dear Eric,

Thank ou for your comment.

Yes, i was thinking same before.

Tempering/quenching makes only Hamon parts harder...

because, of cray/Yakiba-zuchi.

however, Hiraji is also tempered, not much as ha.

Utsuri is also parts of hamon.

 

as mr.Toyama explained,

we didn't have material which is harder than tempering tamahagane.

which makes me think about it.

 

and i have a few experience that re-tempered koto katana by modern smith.

it was normal a bit tired thin blade. for try out.

smith had almost no problem to put new hamon on it.

the surface of the bkade didn't damaged much.

 

compare to Nobuhide's dragon and Sadatoshi's.

what makes so different? only chiseling technique ?

[runagmc]

Like Brian said, I wouldn't think it would make sense to do horimono before yaki-ire and kongo-do/binsui-do. Risk of damage during quenching and damage to horimono from grinding with he rough stones would make it risky at best...IMHO...

 

Although, I guess the horimono could be roughed out before, and the finish carving could be done after quenching and rough shaping...

[runagmc]

Kunitaro san, they didn't have HSS, but they still could harden their carving tools to the same as the edge hardness of sword...

[Brian]

I think this would be a good one to have some input from Ford on. Will have to try and herd him this way tomorrow.

 

Brian

[kunitaro]

Thank you for your attention.

I will discuss with mr.Toyama and more.

 

Let us go deeper.

 

Here is closer image for consideration

[cabowen]

They had access to chisels which could have been even harder than the ha.....

 

It would seem very difficult to properly polish the blade with a horimono already there....

[k morita]

Kunitaro san, :D

Attached pic is [A Study of Kurihara Nobuhide] on page 54.

Please refer the underline of important description .

Moreover, Could you please translate it and explain to NMB members.

[kunitaro]

Thank you very much, Morita san !!

 

*****simple translation*****

Kurihara Nobuhide no kenkyu (A Study of Nobuhide)

 

P54

 

he had archived the design of Ameno uzume no mikoto from 20 years of working as Butsugu-shi ( Buddhist ornament maker )

His Horimono of the mirror which ordered by Minatogawa family, the Choku-to sword in Yahiko shrine and the sword own by mr.Fukushima Yokichi are exactly same, there are very impressive.

 

the swords i have seen by Showa 12-13 (1937-1938), the blade with horimono were rare.

but, there is more sword with Horimono nowadays. this is myth...

 

There was no material which is harder than tempered Tamahagane, so smith had take risk of carve before Yakiire,

 

The photo of Fudo-myoo is the sword extant (preserved) at the stage before Ywkiire at Kurihara family's.

He stooped carving at this stage, then do yakiire (Yakiba-watashi)

After Yakiire, he carve more finer parts to finish up.

by this method, the hardness become equal from bottom to top of carving, and it will shine like a jem stone after polish.

 

This Fudo-myoo is very unique, because, he has neckless with mirror, it is expressing of Nobuhide as a mirror maker.

which we shouldn't miss.

 

However, we have modern hard (steel) material which is harder than tempered steel, so modern craft man could carve on old sword easily. and they are doing,

How should i observe this fact ?

**************************************************

 

when we look at zoomed Ameno uzume no mikoto.

I guess The basic carving is done before Yakiire,

and a few ke-bori ( like 2 plants coming out from heard ) is done after Yakiire.

could you see ?

What do you think ?

[Eric H]

The photo of Fudo-myoo is the sword extant (preserved) at the stage before Ywkiire at Kurihara family's.

He stooped carving at this stage, then do yakiire (Yakiba-watashi)

Kunitaro,

I‘m a bit confused, has this sword a tempered edge, or is it untempered?

 

Comparing the Dragon Horimono by Nobuhide and Gassan Sadatoshi. Nobuhide and Yoshitane were the most skillful Horimonoshi in Shinshinto period. Sadatoshi is a contemporary smith who carves most excellent Horimono.

Nobuhide forged swords in nioi-deki as well as in nie-deki. The close up of “Ameno uzume“ displays a nioiguchi tempered in nie-deki, that said, if he made Horimono before yakiire, and only on nioi-deki blades, this example speaks against the theory.

Nobuhide‘s known dated blades are from 1855 -1878.

Anyway if Nobuhide has carved Horimono before yakiire, and in succession of the theory only on nioi-deki blades, then it must be considered as unusual and a peculiarity of this smith.

 

Eric

[Brian]

It appears as though the one in the picture is preserved at the stage before yakiire by the Kurihara family.

So this is the state he would take it to, before doing the quenching, and then finishing the finer details of the horimono. Very interesting subject, and one I don't believe has come up before here.

Maybe perculiar to Kurihara, maybe not

There is a book out there just on horimono..I forget the name. I wonder if this subject is tackled there at all?

 

Brian

[kunitaro]

This is a bit upper part of the blade, a few cm above Ameno uzume no mikoto, the cloud parts.

There is almost no Nie, become more Nioi-deki,

[kunitaro]

more upper parts.

 

more Nioi-deki,

 

Which is meaning that Tempreture control is not 100% perfect...

There we see Nobuhide's hesitation of Yakiire.

 

There is many compete Nioi-deki long sword, but, not many complete Nie-deki blades.

[runagmc]

Kunitaro san, you may be right that they had no access to material harder than hardened tamahagane, but if we assume the gravers and chisels were made of hardened tamahagane, then the chisels would be harder than the un-hardened jigane of a sword.

 

I wonder why the sword pictured in the book was left un-hardened... could it be that this sword was a special case where he finished everthing on the sword, but never intended to harden it? Or can we assume from this one example that this is how he did all of his horimono?

 

I wonder if the sword still has the rough file marks from shaping, or if it has been polished with stones at all...