Goto - side school / branches - discussions on difference.

[GARY WORTHAM]

Was at a recent meeting of the NCJSC, and fittings / schools, were within the discussion. Here began, the subject of; the identification / knowledge of the core, 17 generations of Goto school masters lineage, working for the Shogunate; verse the sub school smiths, who were not, of the privileged status.

 

Here lies the throw down identity of Waki - goto, or described as a " side school ". Not privileged to have the availability of " gold ", with which to produce the perfect shakudo workmanship and color; and of course, combined with their skill.. Seems that Waki goto was characterized as a slightly brownish shakudo, or brassy gold, in color; due to the fact of the economizing of the gold, of the budget of the Tokugawa.

 

Of even more variation, it seems that the term Kyo kinko, has been described as the term for workmanship of fittings that still look " nice ", but were even further from the quality of the mainline Goto masters.. Further diving into the lower levels of skill, draws the name of Kyo Kanagushi, [ Kyoto metal workers ]; who seems to be both unsigned as well as mediocre in quality.

 

No doubt there are exceptions to the rule, in all categories, in the above classifications; but it seems a good subject of discussion to fill in the blanks, by those of the keeper, of wisdom; as well as examples of fittings, to justify & clarify said schools / smiths.

 

Opps, I almost forgot the rest of my thoughts !!!

 

The factions of the deeply cut, Mino Goto schools fittings, with the characteristic flowers & bug theme. Where did they settle on this technique & theme; and how do they fit in the main Goto school bloodline. ???

 

And the highly skilled Kaga Goto school, with the dazzling ornamental objects, placed within their structured works. How did this direction come to pass for these artists, so different from the mainline Goto styles. Where did they come to pass in origin ???

 

If that's not enough to work with, the ko Goto schools are ????

 

A lot of thoughts rolled into one subject, with no simple or easy answer; yet others may have their unique parts to the puzzle.

 

Gary Wortham

[Soshin]

Hi Gary Wortham,

 

Thanks for starting this interesting discussion. From looking at my posts on the Tosogu forum and by looking at my website you can gather that I don't generally collect kinko works. I currently only have a modern Japanese copy of a famous Hirata Higo kinko tsuba. I do have a number of books highlighting fine kinko work though. I really like Goto Ichijo work but realize that I would need to change a few tax brackets before I could ever afford something like that. :lol: I did have at one time a nice set of Kyo Kinko menuki. I was told by few different people that the workmanship was much better then Kyo Kanagushi but not to the level of mainline Goto. Much of what you discuss in your opening post is the extent of my knowledge on the subject therefore I can't really add much. I have a general policy not to post photographs of things I don't own unless directly requested by the owner. I would check out the following website they generally have very nice Kinko works sale: http://tetsugendo.com/. They also sometimes post on the forum with things that are not on the website.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[John A Stuart]

Although we tend to like things defined and put into orderly niches, Goto school work, like most other things, can not be so neatly appraised. Traditionally in Japan, the transmission of a familial line proceeds from the father to the oldest living son at the time of his death or in cases retirement. This may even be another son, for cause, or an adopted son and heir (common). Most times an adopted son is part of a related family. So, just as the European houses, there were other sons and thus cousins and so forth that could not inherit the right to be head of that line. They were trained, just as capable, what should they do? Start their own side branch of course. So why would their work be any less capable? Just like any line of artists, some were better than others. The first 5 heads of the Goto line are considered the ko-Goto. There is much attributed to this designation that I believe may be associated works and not from the hands of these artists. What does it matter though, if the work shows the skill etc. of them? Many of these side branch Goto worked for high ranking officials (buke) and access to gold would be no problem, even if the mainline were the mint officials. If the shakudo is of lesser quality, I suggest reappraising the artist. The first Goto head, Yujo (Shirobei line) was born in Mino no Kuni and trained in the Mino-bori tradition, which he refined with his going to Kyoto. Some people are not comfortable with the designation Mino-Goto. I am because, the techniques of the early family were transmitted to some of the Mino artists. Most Mino-bori is not Mino-Goto though.

[John A Stuart]

Oh, I should add. All metal craftsmen are kanagushi, yes? Kyo-kanagushi are from Kyoto or the environs (or are they?) and are the particular Tachi-Kanaguchi artisans. When we look at old tachi fittings floral and arabesque themes predominate. It was the aesthetic of the time and is seen as well northward continuing later in Mino and Ezo. Why autumnal floral themes for Mino-bori? I hope someone can enlighten us on that, but, I always thought it referred to the reflective period after all was said and done and life could resume its' own quietude and harmony. John

[Curran]

John,

Very well said.

 

I begrudged myself learning Goto for many reasons and came to it late in studies. Even now with many of the Goto books and a few years, I have barely memorized an outline and a few kantei points. On more than one occasion I have asked John to help me understand a particular side school signature. The one area where I have bit the head off the chocolate Easter Bunny is with Kaga Goto. While there is much Kaga kinko, the Kaga goto is usually rather limited and only a few pages even in the Kaga Kinko Taikan.

 

~~ The quickest takeaway regarding Kaga Goto ____ and this is my opinion more than anything written up in the books ___ is that it is usually meticulous and designed to be viewed from the perspective of a person at least a few feet away than the perspective of a person up close. Ie. It is designed more with proportions and angles to be viewed by an audience vs by an owner that purchases and wears the items. Zoom into the item and you will find no fault with the workmanship.

 

Actual Kaga Goto tsuba of quality seem very rare. Not crazy about the one on Choshuya, as I thought that one more in Kyo Kinko camp.

Usually you only get to see the Mitokoromono Kaga sets, and even those seem rare if not broken up.

[Pete Klein]

Kaga Goto represent the works or works attributed to Shirobei Goto Tokujo (V), Kenjo (VII) and Teijo (IX) while in Kaga. The geneology is a bit complicated so suffice it to say Goto Tokujo got on the wrong side of Iyeasu and was left ronin, afterwords being taken in by the Maeda Daimyo in Kaga, one of the richest men in Japan. Tokujo, Kenjo and Teijo all worked for the Maeda at times and their craftsmanship leant to that of the Kaga artists. If you have Haynes index look up Goto Kojo, Tokujo, Eijo, Kenjo, Sokujo and Teijo and you can trace the basic geneology.

 

As for 'Mino Goto', it is an older term which to the best of my knowledge has been discontinued.

[GARY WORTHAM]

Greetings to all from the current responses and informative answers;

 

I find that the connotation of Mino goto, seems to indicate the smiths original or location is Mino; whereas the Kaga goto, in turn, suggests the same of Kaga. Simple enough.

 

Here lies, in my observation of the representative pieces and styles; a very dramatic difference.

 

Mino goto fittings, for all general purpose, have the deeply carved surface of the for mentioned insects with floral images; and most on a nanako sub surface. And might I add, that the workmanship, is of a more unrefined nature, when placed for comparison, along side a Kaga goto representation piece.

 

Kaga goto fittings, as a whole, are on the other side of the concept of style. They seem to have exquisite works of style of their architectural caliber of various designs; almost always on a high quality flat background, as well as brilliant use of mixed metals, They, to me, are almost an exact opposite, to that of the Mino goto.

 

If these artists were trained, as was mentioned, with the skill and quality of the top Goto family head; as well as the equal availability of top material for use; how and what influenced the dramatic differences in end products structure and design ?

 

Looking forward to the further understanding of this complex and most interesting subject matter,

 

Gary Wortham

[John A Stuart]

Hi Gary, With very few exceptions Kaga-Goto follow the precepts of Goto work. That is having a nanakoji plate with certain limited subject matter. There were other Kaga artists that were known for honzogan similar to Awa work that had other plate. You will see in the pics added a rare Kaga-Goto tsuba not of the typical type. Late Edo period Goto (Ichijo for example) became more innovative and veered away from the static rule previously representative. John

[Pete Klein]

FWIW - Ichijo wasn't 'main line' Shirobei Goto but Waki Goto, of the Shichiroemon family.

Edit

PS: He was adopted into the Hachibei family and succeeded to head there. Thanks John.

[John A Stuart]

Thanks Pete. I did mean Goto work in general in that case though. Within the Shirobei line true innovation was restarted by the tenth generation Renjo and then Yenjo (12) skipping again until Hojo (16). John

[Pete Klein]

Interesting John -- in what ways?

[John A Stuart]

Sitting at the feet of masters, Pete. Whereas the quality of Goto work in general is a gold set standard against which other work may be measured there is much work that surpasses theirs. Although many of these newer artists were students of certain Goto masters their work was able to flower, not being under familial constraints. Tobari Tomihisa, Kozui, Araki Tomei, Ikkin and onwards. Kojo and Tokujo could be hot and cold, Eijo has really better work, Sokujo can have superb pieces and then fail on some, Tsujo's carving lacks definition and fails generally, Shinjo has nice tsuba but his small pieces are less dramatic. Of course this is subjective and the carving of any is competent and is only lacking compared to alongside others. And ... the obligatory... IMHO John

[Pete Klein]

Thanks for that. Muito obrigado!

[John A Stuart]

I am interested in what you think Pete. Do you find some Goto work lacking that...something that others have? John

[Pete Klein]

A most difficult question to answer with so many artists and so many works. My personal preference is split between early works primarily and some later ones. Yujo is by far my preferred due to the diligence of his carving, then Joshin for his often bold presentation, followed by his son Kojo who attended to both of his predecessor's styles adding other metals tothe palette, with works of Kenjo and Teijo also appreciated. I happen to find the fourteenth Shirobei Keijo (Mitsumori) to have done some very interesting work in copper. In Kyo Goto the Ichijo school is most interesting, combining technical skill with artistry but I have to lean toward the older main line works 'pour mon satori'! (Jean, pour voux) lol!

Of course this is subjective and everyone is open to their views and appreciation. Mine have/has changed many times to date and I hope will agian, for that is learning.

[GARY WORTHAM]

Ok, you guys forgot about me in your educational challenges;

 

Being that I collect fully mounted swords, with the hope they remained as true to possible to their original thoughts of the time. I find that those of the Mino Goto fittings, seem to be of the field / samurai type; whereas the Kaga Goto, of the fancy / elaborate designs, were reserved for the court / nobility type.

 

Interesting that they are so diametrically opposite from each other, in their appearance & as well as situational function; yet, being evolved from the same mainline school of training.

 

Anyway, my observation & opinion;

 

Gary Wortham

[John A Stuart]

No, haven't forgot you. It is an interesting area of study. I am afraid I am not sure what you mean about Mino-Goto or Mino work being for the work-a-day samurai or field pieces. I include two Mino works which would surely be daimyo quality and likely not found on swords of the lower ranked samurai. I have these pieces and because of certain characteristics, the dragons on the mimi in the tsuba's case and the end balanced boar on the kozuka note a Goto influence. Maybe you could illustrate what you mean by '...so diametrically opposite from each other,...'. John

[GARY WORTHAM]

Hi John;

 

Speaking in generalization, of the sharp contrast between the styles of Kaga & Mino goto; is the point I was implying; and their source of origin of workmanship. Of course, there are fine examples of the daimyo quality levels of Mino, as you has provided. The visual implication of the difference of the 2 schools, would be best shown, in examples of each; as menuki, fuchi kashira, and of course tusba; side by side. This may be at others capability, to provide such photos, to further explore this discussion.

 

Gary Wortham

[Soshin]

Hi Gary Wortham,

 

This is one thing I haven't done with the source material I do have. Mostly because again the Goto school like much of the Kinko group has not been the focus my collecting and study. I will defer additional comments to others more knowledgeable then me and see if I can learn something by following this discussion. Nice example John thanks for posting.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[John A Stuart]

Here are some more examples for comparison. John

[John A Stuart]

I include a fuchigashira I have that is lower quality, still and all representative. For reference is a fk of the Kagazogan mentioned earlier. John

[Guido]

Could I have a definition of "Daimyô quality", please? BTW, some Daimyô earned less than a Hatamoto or Gokenin ...

[cabowen]

Daimyo were largest and most powerful landholding magnates in Japan from about the 10th century until the latter half of the 19th century. As such, in general, they were considered wealthy and able to own the best of whatever they wished to own. Thus, the phrase "Daimyo quality" would refer to an item of top quality, fit for a Daimyo, as it were.....

[Eric H]

Thus, the phrase "Daimyo quality" would refer to an item of top quality, fit for a Daimyo

This Tsuba was sold with the premise „Daimyo level presentation Tsuba“ by either Kaga or Yoshioka Goto Schools.

 

Eric

[GARY WORTHAM]

Greetings to all;

 

John, those are most excellent examples of fine works of the schools of Mino & Kaga. However, what I might imply, is that we all strive in our collection, to acquire the best of the schools we prefer, at the monetary level at which we feel comfortable to expend. Therefore, the less than perfect examples of the schools, are less shown, less collected, and therefore not used in the comparison that I have suggested.

 

The last comparison of fuchi kashira you provided, was a good example of the structural difference, I was referring to, between the Kaga " honzogan ' & Mino " kinko "schools. Now, here's were i get a little confused, as your Kinko fuchi / kashira example, of insects & kiku motif, to me is a straight forward example of Mino goto workmanship, yet it is labeled as Kinko. A little clarification, if you would indulge me.

 

Yet to see the other branch schools, in a visual exploration, such as Waki goto; which always seems to be the identification of menuki in the dragon style; generally speaking. Oh yes, and Kyo goto fundamental appearance points would be of interested from those who know.

 

Just thought of the other " fly in the ointment " of these sub school fittings discussions. Their usage; ex: " work vs dress ".

The court and dress fittings are more than likely, not the one's fitted to their sword carried into the field & for warfare. I would submit that the really " fancy & pretty stuff " was for show and status; whereas the practical fittings had the durability but with style in the working environment. These pieces would seem to support the need of durability, I was referring to, of the surface structure of the Kaga vs Mino construction.

 

Thanks to everyone for the informative input so far,

 

Gary

[John A Stuart]

Tnat is just how I have the jpg named and not directly named as Mino-bori, not meant to mislead as it is indeed kinko as are all those pictured. John

[nagamaki - Franco]

Could I have a definition of "Daimyô quality", please?

 

Guido, on page 24 of Bushido Magazine Volume 3, No. 1 you will find something close to a definition in an article titled "Daimyo-Omocha" or Daimyo's Plaything, with photos. And if a picture is worth a definition, for sometime, I don't know if it is there any longer, there was a Juyo short blade with solid gold Omori Teruhide Koshirae that were simply outstanding and must've surely been a 'Daimyo-Omocha', on, if memory serves, one German dealer's website.

 

Also, for anyone interested in Bushido Magazine you'll find written articles titled Mainline Goto and Goto Shirobei in Volume 1, numbers 1 & 3.

[John A Stuart]

And a good article about Ezo fittings just after. The Goto article by Haynes in Vol 1 No 3 is very good. John

[Soshin]

Hi Everyone,

 

I have often wondered it purchasing copies of this short run magazine Bushido is worth the money as I generally focus on collecting iron tosogu. Having just the photos of the Daimyo level kinko tosogu might be a good idea. On the topic of Daimyo I also remember reading that one of the requirements of Daimyo is to have 100,000 koku of rice per year or more of rice production. The volume unit of koku (石/石高) was the amount of rice needed to feed a single person for a whole year.

 

 

 

Yours truly,

David Stiles

[Guido]

I guess it's just what I thought from the beginning: some kind of “marketing hype“ – however, I have to admit that it has a nice ring to it. :D

 

As to Daimyō: you put a zero too many in your figure, David. In the Edo period, territorial lords who earned more than 10,000 Koku were considered Daimyō, those with a lesser income Shōmyō; from that they had to pay all their household expenses and their retainers – there was not much left to buy “Daimyō grade” Tōsōgu.

 

In Kambun, only 51 of the about 250 Daimyō had an income of 50,000 Koku or higher. The Hosokawa earned as much as the Shōgun (540,000 Koku) (but only half of what the Maeda made [1.2 million]). No wonder the Hosokawa were able to employ all those great Higo artists.

 

To those who want to get into more detail, I recommend the book 大名と旗本の暮らし by 平井聖.