Chemical analysis results

[Adrian S]

G'day to all,

 

Well... we did our trial. The results surpassed my expectations! The analysis shows clear trends and information that is stunning, even shocking. A very exciting time was had by all. It will take me a day or two to get all the results into a chart format for all to share. I will be issuing the results separately, first the gendaito. I really am looking forward to Chris' imput on these results. After a healthy and heated discussion, I will post the shinto and shinshinto results, followed by the muromachi koto results.

 

I am so happy with the trial that I will hire a machine in the new year for a week and give Sydney and Melbourne collectors a chance to have their swords tested. My data collection will focus on Gendaito, Shinshinto and Shinto. I'll keep you all posted.

 

cheers,

[Kam]

Hi Adrian

 

Well you had me convinced before the trial but now I am very excited. . . so many blades that I have been curious over that might finally be resolved

 

 

Kam

[Takahashi]

Dear Adrian,

I am also very eager to see the results of the analysis.

I always wondered, if there is a way to pin the age of a blade down by an analysis of the used steel.

Please tell us also how you are gonna be interpreting the results.

Cheers,

[drbvac]

This is both amazing and pretty scary - I wonder considering the size of the sample is their any danger of cross contamination from an older source on the area of the nakago being tested or are several areas tested. Could make some "attributions" on mumei blades look a little strange if enough samples are correlated with guaranteed eras to establish the accuracy. Could it be done through the mail for ones own interest?

[Adrian S]

G'day to all,

 

I will get some results up soon. What I can say now is that we tested swords in 5 spots. The sample test area is a 3mm round circle. 1st spot on the jiri of the nakago, then 2nd spot on the nakago closer to the blade approximately 3cm below the machi. 3rd spot 15cm from the munemachi and in the shinogi-ji beside the mune. 4th spot, again 15cm from the munemachi , but this time on the ji adjacent to the shinogi ( or in the case of hirazukuri a mid ji spot ) . The 5th spot is on the ha, again 15cm from the hamachi. In some cases we did some additional spots 3, 4, and 5 but moved up the blade another 5cm, to verify multilayer construction, as we saw a need from the results. It was very evident right from the start that the nakago and the swords were showing differences. In fact we were able to make dramatic conclusions right from the first blade! I'm not going to pre-emt the discussion until you see what I've seen, but it is very exciting indeed.

 

Gendaito results comming soon, cheers

[Adrian S]

Here are the gendai results boys

 

I have some opinions but would like to see what other think. Call me chicken :lol:

[Adrian S]

G'day all,,

 

Changed my mind, ok I'll go first. Remember that the Japanese started producing Bessemer process steel from sand iron in the Meiji period. Resulting in a high silicon western style steel.

 

1. Shigetsugu . Kobuse construction. nakago shows bessemer high silicon iron, probably also extending into the core. The blade however shows uniform clean tamehagne, same steel across the blade. No obvious laminated construction (eg sanmai )

 

2. Kanemich, Kobuse construction, made by the orishigane method with high silicon bessemer steel.

 

3. Yoshichika. Kobuse construction, same again but with a different steel, made by the orishigane method with high silicon bessemer steel. Interestingly we found an exact match for this steel as a western steel. I would call it a Nambantetsu example.

 

4. Yasutoku, Kobuse construction, iron nakago (maybe a bessemer steel , but probably a "less worked" and so dirtier tamehagne), blade all made from clean tamehagne

 

Anything you didn't already know Chris? I hope Shigetsugu made all his swords like this, some of you guys know what I'm talking about.

 

cheers,

[cabowen]

My guess is that all but the Yasukuni blade were made with some form of western style steel. The Kasama and Kanemichi blade may have been processed more, the Yoshichika less....

 

I would guess that this Kasama blade is a later one, with a sosho mei???

[Adrian S]

g'day Chris,

 

Agreed, but I would call the blade metal in the Shigetsugu high quality clean tamehagne. It is pretty much identical to the Yasukuni blade metal.

 

The Shigetsugu is indeed sosho mei and dated 1937

 

cheers,

[ice-hot]

Hi, I'm a mechanical engineer from Fiat. I work at the Fargo Case-New Holland Plant and we have the simular machine. I never thought of using it on a sword. How exciting, to find out exactly the steel composition -- of a sword!!! Could we not then determine age and school???

 

I'm taking it home Monday night. LOL

 

I think the days of sight and seal are numbered.

 

John A

[cabowen]

Agreed on the kasama blade, though my comments were made based on the samples taken at the nakago.....

 

What do you mean "no evidence of lamination"?

[Adrian S]

G'day all,

 

Chris,Yes I will amend that comment, no evidence of a laminated construction , such as sanmai or gomai.

 

John, we tried a couple of these machines in the first test. Only the best one was good enough. It cost $56K! also we had it fine tuned and calibrated before we started the trial. You will need to see if your machine can be accurate to 0.005%.

 

As for schools etc. When you see the rest of the results, I conclude that we will be able to make some assumptions based on the type of steel and the construction but first we need to test many more swords. As for school, I don't think it will ever get that far. I will be happy to break it down to early koto, late koto, shinto, shinshinto and gendaito. The interesting thing for mumei owners everywhere is the answers to these questions. This machine will tell you the answers, even from an unpolished blade! If not the 100% answer than at least a very high probablitity answer. It can also easily detect if a sword is ubu or, a reshaped osuriage to look ubu or most importantly, a ubu nakago made to look like a osuriage older sword. The bonus is that it will also be able to detect welded on nakagos and "some" suspicious gakumei.

 

 

cheers,

[Jim P]

Hi Guys, A photo of the testing

[Adrian S]

G'day all,

 

Just to let you know. The machine has a soft plastic face with a little hole that takes the reading. We didn't move the machine on the sword, just placed it on the spot. It uses a low frequency xray, no heat applied and no polish was effected. Just in case anybody was thinking we were doing anything sacriligious. :lol:

 

cheers

[Niordian]

Can you share the what device/equipment is that?

We need one in Singapore

[runagmc]

Adrian, why is there no carbon reading?

[Adrian S]

G'day Adam and all,

 

This is the earlier post on the machine if you missed it

viewtopic.php?f=9&t=11589

 

The portable version of the XRF spectrometer will only give readings for the elements below carbon on the periodic scale. If you want to get a carbon reading you need the full lab version which means putting the sword into a vacuum and using laser bombardment. A different technology. For this trial we can deduce carbon from the LEC column which is the remainder. Carbon is always present and will vary anyway so it is not as important as finding other elements that are there and may be indicators as to the material used in the sword. We have been able to figure out sword construction without carbon figures anyway. When I have the other charts ready you will see some more interesting readings.

 

cheers,

[John A Stuart]

Hi Adrian, Interesting so far. I am sure that you mean the machine will only give readings for elements above carbon on the periodic scale >12amu. I notice there is no reading for boron because it is 10amu and one element below carbon. John

[Adrian S]

Hello John,

 

Yes, you are quite right, above carbon. Which is the vast majority, only 5 elements being below Hydrogen, Helium, Lithium, Berylium and Boron. I was expecting to see Sodium but none was found in any of the samples. Information on Borax may be out of reach for now.

 

Dave mentioned to me that the Yasukuni smith pretty much used any scrap metal and unused lower quality tamehagne for core ( and nakago ) metal. Looking more closely at the figures, the nakago on the Yasukuni looks very close to the same steel as the Kanemichi. It may well also be bessemer produced high silicon iron, interestingly a high copper reading. Maybe some recycled scrap? Is it possible that the Yasukuni smiths were also working orishigane for core steel? With tamehagne being expensive and in demand it may have been used frugally. I have heard talk in the past of the Yasukuni smiths doing a little work on the side, maybe putting aside some alocated tamehagne for these moonshine projects. Chris, what do you think? My source quotes a WW2 polisher who was working with the Yasukuni smiths at the time. Is it hearsay or do you have any first hand information from conversations with surviving Yasukuni smiths? We will need more readings from Yasukunito to make more clearer assumptions. I look forward to it.

 

cheers,

[John A Stuart]

When at Yasukuni shrine I couldn't help but notice that the site of the original tatara was still visible, I believe two actually. It is curious in that with the source being 50 meters from the forges steel other than tamahagane was needed. Could the tatara have been charged with a melange of sand ore and modern steel to stretch the smelt? I know Manchuguo provided sand ore and was occupied to the bitter end of WW II and was a source of Japanese steel smelted a la Bessemer. Could this be the source? Yes, I would have expected some sort of sodium content. John

[Adrian S]

G'day John,

 

To my knowledge, the Yasukuni tatara was in Shimane prefecture in Yasugi, a long long way away from Tokyo. This is also the current tatara used by the NBTHK. You may be referring to the actual forges at Yasukuni shrine.

 

cheers,

[John A Stuart]

They had their own on site. I am quite sure. In fact there is a large area there where now is held special events like sumo. John

 

In the book The Yasukuni swords: rare weapons of Japan, 1933-1945

By Tom Kishida, Kenji Mishina, it is mentioned.

 

This may link you;

http://books.google.ca/books?id=z6oB6eF ... ra&f=false

[Guido]

Could someone pretty please explain to me in layman's terms what this is all about? This is already the third (?) thread on the same subject and I still have no clue what's being said and how the chemical composition of a blade will aid us when it comes to Shinsa. There even seems to be no answer to the question whether borax was used or not. Everybody who participated in the threads seems to be pretty excited, and I don't know why. Emperor's new clothes?

 

I'm not trying to be difficult or controversial, I honestly don't get it ....

[John A Stuart]

Hi Guido, As I am interested in archeometallurgy it has interest, but, whether it correlates to any profound illumination is yet to be determined. Like Groucho used to say "It can't hurt". John

[george trotter]

Hi all,

Like Guido, I'm afraid all the columns of figures go over my non-metallurgically trained head...I also must have missed the earlier threads as this is the first I know of it...that said, may I say it is a worrying development in the sense that all the scholarship, historical research, skill and classical training of sword professionals, and the enthusiasm, mystery, thrill of the hunt, preference for schools, smiths and eras and the desire to learn is all about to come to an end. All we'll need soon is a a metallurgical test to tell us "what a sword is" and if the sword is "any good". Just a thought, please tell me if I am over-reacting.

Anyway, may I try to come abreast of things...?

Please disregard the following if you have already addressed this point in another thread:

It seems that this testing is telling you the sword's forging technique, (laminating style/core type etc) and the overall composition of the sword's steel/tamahagane (different steel in the tang/core etc)...if this is so, how can it be said outright that this test result proves "X"? Wouldn't it be necessary to have a sword/steel samples with an exactly known content and forging style tested first, with the results used as an empitical fixed point to compare each tested sword against? And wouldn't this be necessary for each era and region? (perhaps for gendaito a shinsakuto by a known smith who has explained exactly what style and materials he forged it in so you will recognise these outcomes in another sword of unknown details)?

 

Now a mystery...Your comment earlier that the Kasama Shigetsugu results lead you to say that you hope he made all his swords like this, "some out there know what I'm talking about"...can you let the rest of us know also?

 

I suppose there might be a few unforseen ramifications to come of this new concept...I know it is early days yet, but can you speculate on:

1. how much it will likely cost to test a sword?

2. where these tests can be done?

3. will there be a publication/table we can obtain which will explain what a "good" result is for us to check our test results against? (one for koto - shinto - shinshinto - gendaito - gunto - shinsakuto?). Will there be one for each smith/region...etc?

4. do you think it will be necessary to insist on one of these test sheets being supplied by dealers everywhere before collectors buy?

5. how long do you think it will be before forged certificates appear?

6. how much longer do you think it will be before it is unnecessary to rely on such institutions as the Japanese Token Societies.

7. do you think textbooks on Nihonto will now lose their relevence (and value)?

8. once this system is in place, do you think there will be any need for forums such as this (won't we know all from the test result?)?

9. where will all the "reject" swords go?

10. will they be worth anything?

 

Interesting topic.

[runagmc]

Since the swords will all be made up of almost pure iron with only trace amounts of other elements, I don't see how determining age or source material would be possible, much less determining school or smith. That being said, it's still somewhat interesting to see the data. Hopefully I'm wrong and just too ignorant to see the potential of the work Adrian's doing. Either way I commend him for trying it, and like John says, it certainly can't hurt

[eternal_newbie]

I wonder if the data gained from this type of testing would be of any use to a modern smith, for example, trying to reproduce the steel composition in a treasured Awataguchi or Masamune blade...

[John A Stuart]

Hi George, It certainly won't replace any hard won understanding in the traditional sense. When these kinds of things are done in the scientific journals it is as an adjunct to other data and very little supposition is gained directly from it alone. Remember a thread some time ago wondering about the use of meteoric iron? It could help with analysis in that case. As to all the other factors involved in the complicated process of forging a Japanese sword that we love so much, it will do nothing. So, no worries on another automated test replacing a good shinsa team, at least not in this century. John

[george trotter]

That's reassuring John, thanks...time for bed.

Regards

[CurtisR]

Although I'm not a chemistry whiz, this is a very interesting thread. Reminds me of reading DNA "profiles" in humans...all are similar but it's the little variances that make the swords' composition unique and identify-able and specific unto itself. Fascinating.

 

Curt R.