Questions on Nihonto for Iai

[hyoshi]

Greetings,

 

My first post here. I'm not (yet!) a collector of Japanese swords rather a novice aficionado. I have about 10 years experience as an iaidoka (mid-grade steel iaito exclusively). Anyhow, I am now considering seriously the purchase of an edged weapon for my practice and I'm here to learn about traditionally made swords, and to understand what my options and budget should be for such an item. Its great to see such a depth of knowledge and enthusiasm for the craft and art of these weapons, thank you all!

 

I've handled a few gunto and I have a basic familiarity with the different periods and styles of nihonto. Since I want to practice Iaido with the weapon, I'm not looking for anything rare or especially valuable (my emphasis is on functional and traditional as possible). I would occasionally use the sword for light cutting, but primarily Iaido. I would prefer a weapon in a buke-zukuri type mounting rather than the gunto type mountings. I have a budget of $2.5-3K. I'm located on the west coast of the U.S. Given these considerations, I think it may be appropriate to look for a traditionally made gendaito and I would like some opinions on this matter. Is this a good idea? Is my budget realistic? Are there any other obvious options I'm overlooking?

 

Regards,

 

JP

[John A Stuart]

You could have your teacher help direct you to a sword appropriate for your style and physique. New swords, shinsakuto, can't be had for this price range by order. I would be hesitant buying a shinshinto for tameshigiri or any older sword, but, that's your call. Gendaito, possibly, however, are they appropriate for your style? I find them weight forward. You might find one suitable for you with guidance. John

[leo]

Hi, JP!

As John said, shinsakuto, new swords, are way beyond the mentioned budget. Gendaito, modern swords, is a term we use for wartime blades, forged traditionally. These are within your budget and you might find one which is even well balanced. You might even find one that is already mounted in buke zukuri style by another iaido practitioner.

The main problem is the length(nagasa). Usually we prefer blades around 73 to 78cm for Iaido training, while the former military blades usually are 62 to 67cm.

 

Regards,

Martin

[hyoshi]

Thank you both for sound the advice. I certainly will speak with my fellow students and instructors before making any purchase. Right now I'm information gathering, and simply trying to determine if it's at all feasible to find a traditionally made shinken for my purpose. I've been at this (Iaido) for a while and I'm not in any hurry to make a purchase. That said, as long as the sword is well balanced, not too heavy, moderately curved for proper nukitsuke / noh-to and close to the correct length, I think it will be good for Iaido practice.

 

I currently practice with a 74cm Iaito which is a good length for me, though it's a bit heavier than what I would ideally prefer. So I think my questions revolve around whether or not this type of Gendaito weapon is available and within my budget, and if so, what are the best books / materials etc., to study and learn about the Gendaito I am likely to encounter on the market. As you can tell, I'm interested in the traditional blade for it's beauty and hand made qualities, and to enjoy the artistic value, as well as 'just' as a sharp practice weapon for Iaido. For this reason I have somewhat different requirements than what may concern other Iaido students looking to purchase a edged weapon. I'm just not sure if it's possible to satisfy both applications with a traditionally made sword.

 

Regards,

 

JP

[runagmc]

This is a good place to start your research, if you haven't been there already...

http://home.earthlink.net/~steinrl/nihonto.htm

[Toryu2020]

JP -

Start with what Ryuha do you follow? Some schools work better with certain swords and certain teachers have strong opinions about what swords should be used. It is also important that we state clearly that practice with a live blade is a very dangerous thing and should never be attempted by someone without proper experience and instruction. Use of antique swords for Iai or tameshigiri practice is anathema to the purpose of this board, which is preservation of items of irreplaceable historical value. Tameshigiri can quickly ruin a sword, and while Iai is much less destructive it is wear and tear on a blade and on scabbard and fittings as well.

 

If you must and your teacher approves there are a couple of ways to go; For the reasons stated above Shinsakuto are best, you choose the blade configuration that is right for you and your school, you choose your own fittings and since it is all modern made you can trust the integrity of the tsuka and no one will cry foul if you put a few scratches on the blade.

 

Use of a gunto works for many as they are made to take the abuse and generally have better shape and balance than say the swords coming out of China. But as noted they tend to be shorter and you will have to outfit them with appropriate koshirae which could eat up your budget. Then again you really shouldn't be using up old fittings on your practice sword. Though there are low quality antiques out there they are no longer making them these days. Using higher quality antique fittings is more appealing but also irresponsible.

 

If you are on the west coast then I recommend you visit the San Francisco sword show a few times - many styles of swords at many different price ranges. There are even sellers who specifically refit old blades with minor flaws to used for Iai. The ones I have seen are well within your budget and none is an undiscovered treasure awaiting restoration. If you know what you are doing you can find old blades suitable for practice and put together older fittings to go with it for a reasonable price but this often takes time. Knowing what to look for is the problem and so many folks do not take the time to seek the right advice.

 

I wish you success in your search and success in your study your friend in the way,

-tc

Muso Jiki-Den Eishin Ryu 6 Dan Renshi

[hyoshi]

Thank you all again for your assistance and comments. It's clear to me that I have lots of work to do, it's an exciting prospect really. Unfortunately the cost of a custom shinsakuto is out of my reach and I understand the notion that a Gendaito is not necessarily appropriate for tamashigiri (its not really a problem though as it's seldom that we practice and a cutting sword can be borrowed). I'm grateful for your time and input and I'll undoubtedly have more questions as I learn more.

 

Regards,

 

JP

[bmlusk1911]

I would recommend a Cas Hanwei blade. I bought a couple to study Toyama Ryu Battendo, because I don't feel like putting a true nihonto at risk and gendaito are a touch expensive for a novice.

 

v/r

 

Brock

[Toryu2020]

Brock -

sorry to step on your post but I would strongly advise against using Hanwei blades. While I agree with the sentiment that one should not use true antiques for tameshigiri or iai - these Chinese blades are unreliable to the point of catastrophic failure and people have been injured.

 

The situation has prompted the AUSKF to advise its members to use only equipment made in Japan. Not as protectionism for Japanese suppliers but as protection for their students and teachers. By extension your support of Chinese suppliers also motivates the fakers that this list goes to great lengths to decry.

 

Use of a live blade for sword practice is inherently dangerous and should be approached with caution under the guidance of a qualified teacher. Add to this, choose your equipment with care...

-t

[hyoshi]

I appreciate the recommendations and admonitions. I'm aware of the CAS Hanwei / Bugei options, but for reasons I explained above, I'm interested in a traditionally made shinken.

 

Fortunately, I'm enjoying my Nihonto study and I'm perfectly happy to continue my practice with an Iaito. But it does beg the question, what options are available to the martial artist? Please understand that I pose this hypothetical question with the utmost regard for the knowledge and dedication of the collectors and scholars of Nihonto here on this board. Undoubtedly, Nihonto of all periods are objects of art that demand exacting care and deserve preservation. However, if even relatively modern Gendai are to be collected and admired only from afar, is there a point beyond which the desire to conserve is at odds with the utilitarian purpose and martial origin of the craft? Is this at all a matter of debate among Nihonto scholars and collectors? Certainly the growth in popularity of Nihonto among collectors, especially in the West, has greatly affected the availability and cost of even modern Shinken. Since there obviously must be more than a few martial artists among the collectors and students of Nihonto, there must be a certain tension about where exactly to draw this line. If a Gendaito from 1940 shouldn't be used for Iai because of it's artistic and historical value, should a Yasuaki Shinsakuto from the 1970s?

 

Respectfully,

 

JP

[Jamie]

I'll preface my opinion by saying i'm a fairly new student of nihonto and do not study Iaido.

IMO, even Gendai-to should be preserved. In a couple hundred years more, they too will be hundreds of years old. IMO, worthy of current preservation.

My opinion is that either a shinsakuto should be purchased or a non traditional blade by another smith. There are many within the US that do good work. Since this is a Nihonto forum, I won't mention anyone specifically.

Just my 02, good luck in your search.

[Shugyosha]

Dear All,

 

I have been lurking for a while and hoping to soak up some information whilst avoiding getting roasted for my ignorance and so I guess I should take this opportunity to make an introduction.

 

JP - here is a link to a sword advertised on the aoi art website as suitable for iaido or batto jutsu. I've no idea as to its suitability but I think it might fit your price range:

 

http://www.aoi-art.com/iai/11407.html

 

Kind regards,

John M. Johnson

[hyoshi]

Thanks, I've seen these Nihonto that Aoi markets as swords for Iai. For now my purpose and goal is to study and learn, so I'm not quite ready for a purchase. To further complicate matters, although unsigned it is attributed to the Edo era and I'm inclined to agree with others that swords of this age may be more appropriately enjoyed and preserved for historical value for any number of reasons, safety concerns not withstanding. When I originally posed the question about using a traditionally made sword for Iai practice, Gendaito was specifically mentioned because it seemed like the most appropriate in terms of scarcity, historical value, cost, etc., for a traditionally made shinken.

 

I'm intrigued by the idea that Jamie put forward and others have implied- that Gendaito shouldn't be considered appropriate for Iai, and that a Shinsakuto should be purchased. Practically, a modern Shinsakuto is out of my reach so I cannot consider such an option. But isn't a Shinsakuto itself a Gendaito (and here I mean any traditionally made sword crafted after Shinshinto)? If all traditionally made swords are going to one day become old and worthy of preservation as art, then surely this notion would apply to the newly made Shinsakuto as well? At this point, is the craft of Nihonto transformed into something else, an object de art wholly divorced from tradition? I don't know, but these are obvious lines of inquiry for a martial practitioner. To all I say thank you for your opinions and advice and beg leniency if I'm broaching the bounds of propriety here, but I'm genuinely interested to know what the arc of opinions on such matters are among collectors and scholars.

 

Regards,

 

JP

[cabowen]

Swords made after the haito-rei, up to the end of WWII are sometimes referred to as kindai-to (近代刀) or recently made swords. Swords made from after the licensing of smiths began and sword making resumed, are called gendai-to (現代刀), or modern made swords. Shinsakuto are newly made swords and are also gendai-to....

 

Many smiths make swords specifically for iai these days. Perhaps ordering one of those when the time is right would be a good option to consider....

[CurtisR]

JP, please remember to go slowly at first regardless of the Shinken for Iai that you end up with.

Be very careful (he said, after 16 stitches)...this hurt. A lot :D