The Digital Shinsa...its around the corner

[Adrian S]

G'day All,

 

We now seem to be getting some serious replies. Good stuff. O.k. here go the responses

 

1) Borax and other fluxes. Occam's razor on the Borax, way to early for that Ford! Indeed the Chinese were using Borax in their swords from the Ming ( yes, I do have the science ), this also caused a dramatic change in appearance of the finished quality of the metal and the welds. I would suggest that what applies today, may have applied 400 years ago, namely " chinese can supply you cheaper, no worries ". The Tokugawa closed door policy only applied to the front door, not the back door. The back door was wide open, black market trade at this time with China and Korea was prolific.

2) XRF has been around for a long time, but not so long in the portable form. This is a relatively new development.

3) Portable XRF scanner accuracy. The technician claims the accurately to be within 2%. That means if for example you get a reading of 1.25% silicon, the accuracy range will be 1.225% to 1.275%, well within laboratory standards. It will not be necessary to achieve accuracy above that for this purpose. My first trials should bear that out.

 

Chris, thanks for the book list, I have most but not the Satetsu one.

 

" I'm making a list, I'm checking it twice, I'm going to find out whose been naughty or nice" :lol:

 

Here is a list of the first batch of swords up for testing. All are signed ubu, most dated and all are highly papered. We have picked swords we feel will give interesting results.

 

Gendai

Katana , Kasama Shigetsugu

Katana , Seki Kanemichi

Katana , Yoshichika (known for making his own steel)

Katana , Yasutoku, Yasakuni smith.

 

Shinshinto

Naginata, Koyama Munetsugu

Katana, Yokoyama Suketaka

Katana , Yoshinao , wakimono smith

 

Shinto

Katana , Kawachi no Kami Kunesuke

Wakizashi, Echizen Shimosaka

Katana, Tsuda Sukehiro

Katana , Kunishige

 

Koto

Katana, Bizen Eisho dated Sukesada

Katana, Bizen Tensho Kiyomitsu

Katana, Oei Bizen Yoshimitsu

Wakisashi, Mino Kanemachi

Katana, Bungo Shigeyuki

 

 

I'm working on a couple more koto.

 

stay tuned,

Adrian S

[cabowen]

Do you have the NBTHK research report I mentioned?

 

Yoshichika is known to have used western steel...We don't know if he actually used the oroshigane process to essentially turn this into something else, or forged it with a minimal amount of processing.....

[Ford Hallam]

Adrian,

 

whether the Chinese could have supplied borax is not sufficient reason to assert they did. In addition you seem to have overlooked the testimony of actual swordsmiths and the reality of what happens to tatara steel when borax is used. There is no need to suppose borax was used by Japanese smiths in the past given what we know of their use of ash and clay slurries as a flux.

 

It seems to me that at this point, it having been demonstrated that the Portuguese did not introduce borax to Japan, and it seems unlikely any other Europeans did either, you are looking for another likely suspect for something we have no proof of actually having happened. This is just very poor reasoning and just serves to further cloud an already misty past.

 

I'm honestly not trying to be nasty here but seriously, we can't just assert things on the basis of it being possible. We need to ask if it was probable and what actual evidence for the claim exists.

 

As for the rest of your testing I await the results with interest.

 

regards,

 

Ford

 

p.s. You still haven't indicated where this theory regarding borax and the Portuguese came from....

[Adrian S]

G'day Ford and others,

 

Thank you for your very interesting reply. I did say the Borax use in Shinto swords is an "early hypnosis" . Chris has stated he has seen it used by some shinsakuto smiths, obviously on tamehagane. So that much is fact, even if they don't show it on YouTube. The Portuguese introduction theory has been floating around for years, I've read it before but can't recall any documentation from that time. Anyway, I think I'll keep some other hypothesis I have to myself for now.

 

What I do know is, the Chinese were using a "highly flux-able refractory clay" which contained borax and other fluxing materials from before the Ming. To my knowledge this fact has already been proven by the Beijing University., Institute of Iron and Steel Technology. by Director Sun, the head of the Institute, and Professor Han Rubin, the chief Archeo-metallurgical Scientist. It comes from both analytical and archeological evidence I believe. Since it would be good to get this point clear and confirmed in my book, I've emailed my contact there today and will give you a more detailed answer and post when I get it. If the Japanese at some point instituted a similar technology is still unknown.

 

Whether it be Borax, Silicon or whatever other indicators turn out to be key indicators, won't matter much. So at this stage I would like to move on to the first tests and have a look at the data before getting too exciting about any hypnosis. We know that the steels changed from region to region, school to school and over time. That's what kantei is all about anyway. We will ( I hope ) be able to chemically differentiate these changes in the steel and then after thorough collection of the data make some conclusions later. These conclusions I'm sure will be widely debated. I'm more interested to see if there were consistent chemical differences in the first place. Keep in mind that the finished steel is also effected by the fuel, the flux , the source material, even the lining of the furnace. It all plays a part. We are looking to categorize differences and similarities to provide indicators, that's about it at this stage.

 

More to come..

Adrian S

[Adrian S]

G'day Chris,

 

I'll happily concede to your superior knowledge on Yasuchika. The NBTHK article should be interesting, I don't have it, but as it pertains to newly made tamehagne and it will be useful as indicators of how well the material retained some alloying elements in the finished swords, I wouldn't mind a copy if you could dig it up. Let me know if you can find it. Do you remember any conclusions they made?

 

cheers,

Adrian S

[cabowen]

Yoshichika.....

 

I have a copy but it is packed away along with most of my other books awaiting the day we move into our new house...

 

It has been many years since I looked at it but as I recall it was interesting to see how each smith manipulated the material in a different way to reach their result...

[Adrian S]

G'day Chris,

 

That would be great, thanks. In the meantime, if anyone else has the NBTHK experiment to hand I would be very interested to see it.

 

Yeah yeah, Yoshichika, well I'm not a gendai guy I guess, I leave that to Dave.

 

cheers,

Adrian S

[Ford Hallam]

Morning Adrian,

 

I apologise if I've seemed unfair in criticising the borax hypothesis. I was merely try to engage in a healthy and robust examination of the notion. I certainly didn't intend to make you feel you needed to keep other theories secret as a result.

 

With regard to the following;

I did say the Borax use in Shinto swords is an "early hypnosis" . Chris has stated he has seen it used by some shinsakuto smiths, obviously on tamehagane. So that much is fact, even if they don't show it on YouTube. The Portuguese introduction theory has been floating around for years, I've read it before but can't recall any documentation from that time. Anyway, I think I'll keep some other hypothesis I have to myself for now.

 

That Chis made this claim hardly proves that borax was introduced in the pre-Edo period at all nor does it actually prove that borax is a significant constituent part of the process today for that matter, he didn't state he'd seen it used in processing tamahagane (perhaps he can confirm or clarify what exactly he did observe) and Pierre's comments regarding the problems that raises casts serious doubt on that particular application. As someone who actually trained as a smith I tend to take his experience quite seriously.

 

Obviously Chris' observations as presented thus far contradict Pierre's ...

While I can't speak to all swordsmiths working today, I know that every swordsmith I have visited was using borax as a flux. I can't say they were relying on it, only that they were using it. That would be roughly 15-20% of those working full time circa 2004

. ...so perhaps it would be wise to seek the views of a few more contemporary smiths.

 

As for the "Portuguese Theory" I think we've demonstrated quite clearly that it was a case of completely unfounded invention that was concocted in complete ignorance of any real facts or evidence.

 

Anyway, moving on...

 

I think you'll find the essay I mentioned in "Science and the past" to be of very real interest dealing as it does with the complications of attempting to analyse metal alloys and such in an attempt to determine a source.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[John A Stuart]

When I mentioned that borax was vital to forging I can say unequivocally that at the forge of Takano Yukimitsu san every furnace had a container of borax at hand. Now, all I was allowed to do there in this respect was forge weld the kataha to the tekobo, but, this required the use of borax otherwise the weld was not strong enough for the work to follow. When at the forge of Yamashina Kazuki san where I worked the hammer I saw no borax in evidence. Maybe it was only for the gaijin to facilitate welding at lower temperatures and ensure a favourable outcome. All I know for sure. John

 

Oh, note to Adrian; hypothesis although the other may indeed be hypnotic.

[David Flynn]

Does it really matter if Borax was used or not? What does matter is, that a respectable database is built, with all pertinent material available. This includes, signed and dated example along with the chemical analyses.

[John A Stuart]

I think it would be very important. If borax, silica, flourspar etc. etc. used as fluxes would be introducing measurable foreign contaminants into the steel altering the results forge to forge. John

[Ford Hallam]

David,

 

it matters if we're serious about attempting to build an accurate and reliable impression of the subject matter at hand. If we simply allow unsubstantiated and unwarranted speculation to season the debate we may as well not bother. The very fact that this notion regarding the Portuguese and borax has been "floating around for some time", unexamined nor challenged, proves my point.

 

To quote my signature line; "Rigorous reasoning from inapplicable assumptions yields the world's most durable nonsense."

 

As to the usefulness of the proposed database of analysis' I think it may be of some help in defining particular groups that had distinct working process, and thereby consistent metallurgical results, but I doubt any more specific pointers such as material origin or individual smiths will be discernible. I say this in light of the fairly dramatic changes and alterations any raw material inevitable undergoes when being processed and worked to a finished artefact. The essay I referred to earlier, in Science and the Past, makes this point very forcefully.

 

regards,

 

Ford

[Adrian S]

G'day to all,

 

Yes thanks Ford, I have ordered Science and the Past.

 

I have got the first trial all organised for next week. I'll post results and photos. Before we jump to conclusions about fluxes, contaminents etc. , lets see what the trial turns up. I was just throwing out a hypothetical about the Borax in my excitement ( not a hypnotical ). I'm just crossing my fingers that the results show some promise. Personally I think there is a long road ahead, but I'm very excited about the prospects. One thing I can assure you all, there will be no secrets, I will keep nothing back, good or bad. "IF" this technology shows some promise, big "IF", then we can move on to the next step. Until then don't loose any sleep over the possible consequenses.

 

cheers for now,

Adrian S

[David Flynn]

Well then this should end the speculation on the use of Borax. Till then, all hypothesis are just that.

[Adrian S]

G'day to all...again,

 

Chris, I would think that a broad spectrum database of swordsmiths group technical data would be of some great benefit to the Shinsakuto smiths. Do you think we may find out a little more about how to reproduce old school jihada? Is there any pertanent questions we may be looking for answer for? Just wondering...

 

cheers,

Adrian S

[cabowen]

G'day to all...again,

 

Chris, I would think that a broad spectrum database of swordsmiths group technical data would be of some great benefit to the Shinsakuto smiths. Do you think we may find out a little more about how to reproduce old school jihada? Is there any pertanent questions we may be looking for answer for? Just wondering...

 

cheers,

Adrian S

 

As I said at the beginning, my concern with being able to take a sample of a finished product and deduce commonality, source, etc., is based on the fact that each smith manipulates the material such that what one has at the end may not be similar to what was started with. We know that there are many chemical changes occurring during the heating, forging, and quenching processes. Being able to work them in reverse seems a daunting task...

 

...Add to that the fact that smiths altered their materials and processes in small, but perhaps significant ways throughout their careers, making comparisons between even their individual blades possibly difficult.

 

What your data may produce is an analysis of the chemical composition of the finished product. It may not be all that helpful with regards to reproducing old school jihada due to the fact that it is not only the materials but the process that contributes to the final result. The heat treatment is also extremely important in determining the final physical and visual properties of the blade and this will not be quantified in a meaningful way, as far as I understand the process you are discussing, from the analysis.

 

As to the borax issue, I have seen it in the shops of many smiths. I have actually seen it used in the shops of 3-4 smiths. I do not remember exactly what they were welding at the time, but I distinctly remember seeing them tossing on some white powder from a can before they welded a billet. I remember asking what it was the first time and was told it was borax and used as a flux. As I said, I do not know how common it is among all smiths, I only know I have in fact seen it used by some smiths.

 

I look forward to the results of your experiment....

[Ford Hallam]

An interesting comment from one of Japan, most famous metal specialist companies; Hitachi Metals.

 

Because Japanese steel includes almost no chemical elements other than iron and carbon, it can be forge welded without the use of flux, which is not the case with steel as traditionally made in the West.

 

Are we to assume the presence of borax indicates the use of modern western style processed steel....curious

[cabowen]

 

Are we to assume the presence of borax indicates the use of modern western style processed steel....curious

 

I would think not. Just because it can be forge welded without a flux doesn't mean it can't be with a flux. We know the Japanese smiths have used fluxes for a long while.....

[Ford Hallam]

I thought Pierre's explanation as to the problems associated with using borax made it clear it's use with tamahagane material was avoided. Ash and clay slurry is a flux of sorts but we're specifically trying to learn if borax was used in the past...are we not?

[cabowen]

I thought Pierre's explanation as to the problems associated with using borax made it clear it's use with tamahagane material was avoided. Ash and clay slurry is a flux of sorts but we're specifically trying to learn if borax was used in the past...are we not?

 

And I thought my explanation of seeing it used by several Japanese smiths made it clear that it is used, at least by some smiths, at some stage of the process....

 

I agree though that at issue here is was borax brought to Japan and adopted by smiths at some early point, making it a marker for the era of production.....

[Adrian S]

G'day Chris and all,

 

I understand your arguments completely and agree. The smiths can alter the carbon content and to some extent add other elements. What I'm thinking is adding elements is a lot easier than "removing elements". I am hoping that the metallic elements such as nickel, titanium , cobalt etc. in small quantities will survive the production processes intact. These elements are not so easily removed from the kera under any circumstances, even if you wanted too. That's not an assumption, like I said, I'm hoping. Right now, I don't know. Again I am hoping that some indicators may vary greatly, some should remain constant to the raw material and the schools production process. This will never be accurate enough to discern the individual smith's work and correlation with source materials may also be in the "too hard" basket. It's the chance of building a broad base of information that is unique here, and that in itself will pose more questions. Let's all see what the first trials show before we make any assumptions. I, for one, don't want to end up with any more egg on my face!

 

Ford, I respect Pierre's opinion and he quote's another non-Japanese smith, but remember he is talking from his own experience and that of his sensei's, I would guess. Chris on the other hand has interacted with dozens of modern smiths. Chris has pretty much stated that Borax is used as a flux by many modern Japanese smiths and he has seen it with his own eyes. I'm quite willing to drop the Borax assumption of early introduction for now because we don't have any evidence yet of it's use in older "Japanese" swords. I will quite happily. so let's leave historical use of Borax alone for now.

 

But to contend that it is not feasible to use Borax with tamehagane or that it is not used today, flies in the face of what Chris has witnessed. To quote yourself. Rigorous reasoning from inapplicable assumptions yields the world's most durable nonsense. We need these questions clearly verified and put to bed. Please understand my concern and I'm not trying to be funny here.

 

1) "Is it possible and practical to use Borax as a flux with tamehagne?" Yes or no

2) "Is it indeed being used as a flux with tamehagne by any modern Japanese smiths" Yes or no

3) "How prevalent is its use today?" research needed or Chris what can you tell us please, do you know more

 

I don't post much to these forums, but when I do it is because I have something important to present. This one is important on many levels, it needs to be sorted out clearly.

 

more again soon,

Adrian S

[Adrian S]

G'day Ford,

 

I think that you will see that the Hitachi article is quite old, they also state in the same article.

 

Currently, the The Society for Preservation of Japanese Art Swords is rebuilding a tatara in the town of Okuizumo, Shimane Prefecture, in the Chugoku Mountains. Its purpose is to provide Japanese steel to be used as the main material for making Japanese swords.

 

How long ago was that! When was the tatara operational? Are they talking about a different tatara? Come on! I wouldn't want to put egg on the face of Hitachi metals, it may be old information.

 

And from Wikipedia

In 1977, the Japanese Society for Preservation of Japanese Art Swords (Nittoho), together with the Japanese government's Agency for Cultural Affairs and Hitachi Works, built in Shimane Prefecture the so-called Nittoho Tatara to provide the steel necessary for the production of Japanese swords. The Nittoho Tatara is managed jointly with Yasugi Works, a subsidiary company of Hitachi Metals, and is operational only during the winter.

 

That would date that article to pre 1977. To be honest when I read the

Because Japanese steel includes almost no chemical elements other than iron and carbon

from Hitachi I nearly choked on my lunch. This page from the same website shows a substancial amount of impurities in the different sources of iron sand in Japan.

 

http://www.hitachi-metals.co.jp/e/tatara/nnp020603.htm

 

What I am trying to do is discover how many of these elements ( particularly metallic ) survive to the finished product. Maybe Hitachi was referring to tramp or "unwanted elements" such as Phosphorus and Sulfur not being present in tamehagne. I am quite sure the ancient Japanese didn't have high tech. purifying equipment needed to extract the pure iron from other metallic elements. O.k., I'm assuming, but its a safe bet.

 

I'll shut up for now.

 

cheers,

Adrian S

[runagmc]

Adrian, looking at your list of smiths got me thinking, wouldn't it be better to test several blades from a single smith so you can see if they give similar data. You could test 3 blades from smith #1, 3 blades from smith #2, 3 from smith #3 ect. It seems to me, the blades from one smith (or smiths of the same mon) would need to give somewhat consistent data for it to be a usefull database. Just a thought... and good luck with your idea...

[Adrian S]

G'day Adam,

 

You are quite correct, ultimately we will need multiple samples from each school and even from the same smiths. To assembly such information will take some time. What we are doing here is a trial only, not assembling any data yet.

 

Primary goals are.

1) Establish the feasibility and accuracy of this technology for our purpose

2) Establish the presence of variables i.e chemical compounds and specifically trace metals in the finished Japanese swords

 

If these goals are not met then no further study is warranted at this time. For this reason I have assembled swords which I feel would give us the best chance to achieve these primary goals

 

Secondary goals, Added bonus would be

1) Discovering "possible" indicators that may be present to determine tamahagne or western steel or other as the source material

2) Discovering "possible" indicators that will with more data determine school characteristics.

 

This is a trial only. If we can achieve the primary goals then we can assess where to go from there. Roger Robertshaw has a nice collection of multiple pieces from the same school active over a long period, namely Hizento. That is the sort of collection that will prove invaluable.

 

cheers,

Adrian S

[Ford Hallam]

Adrian

 

yes, the article is quite old but the point regarding the use of borax not being needed to work watetsu remains. Why use a flux that is know to cause problems with watetsu when it's not needed? Anyway, I'll stop wasting my time trying to provide reasoned analysis of this theory as it's clear you've already decided that the stuff was, and is, an integral part of the process even though the original notion regarding the Portuguese has been shown to be completely erroneous. Now you are intent on making the idea stick regardless of a complete lack of any corroborating evidence.

 

As the expressing goes; "exceptional claims require exception proof" I await some proof of your assertion.

 

Thinking about the presence of borax in certain smith forges it occurs to me that as many smiths today struggle to make a living just making swords so that it's common for they to take on work as tool makers and blacksmiths. This work would obviously not be in watetsu and would therefore quite reasonably require the use of borax etc.

 

 

In the meantime, I'll go and have a chat with some practising swordsmiths and see what they feel about using borax and tamahagane.

 

regards to all,

 

Ford

[Brian]

I am very close to renaming this entire thread "For Flux Sakes!"

Get over it ppl.....and let's see what the experiments bring forth.

 

Brian

[Ford Hallam]

Brian, the issue isn't about flux per se. It's about borax....so perhaps a better title would be "This whole hypothesis is a load of old borax"

[David Flynn]

I personally don't care if Borax was used or not. However, Chris's anecdotal evidence does go a long way. To dismiss this is to virtually call him a Liar!

[Ford Hallam]

I personally don't care if Borax was used or not. However, Chris's anecdotal evidence does go a long way. To dismiss this is to virtually call him a Liar!

 

It doesn't suggest he's lying at all. All it would imply is that the observation that he saw borax present didn't actually mean it was used in processing tamahagane. Your attempt to frame my criticism in this way is not helpful at all. It distorts the discussion in a really dishonest way and to merely create unnecessary discord.

 

In any case, going though a number of analysis of antique blades (yes, there are actually quite a few such published scientific papers in the public domain) I can find no hint or trace of borax in any of them. Perhaps instead of simply hypothesising the various gentleman who object so vehemently to my criticism of this silly idea should do some actual research into the subject and thereby educate themselves as to the evidence on the subject.

 

When I get a chance on the week-end I will upload a number of pdf files of these research and analysis' that I've referred to. I trust there will be some members who will take the time to consider the evidence for themselves.

[David Flynn]

Maybe it's semantics, but that was how it read to me. I'm not trying to take sides. As stated earlier I don't care if Borax was used or not.