Wakizashi left by IJA in Indonesia ?

[truelotus]

wondering why weird stuff keep appearing now ...

 

got an offer for "Japanese sword left by IJA in Indonesia" from one of my friend ...

 

the owner said that his grandfather bought this from an IJA troop, after Japan surrendered to allied forces in 1945

 

as usual, I got first picture, which looked like this

 

 

with information that the handle (tsuka) is not original ... so it's fine if the shape of the tsuka is rather odd

now ... the sugata looked correct, and the blade seems in good condition ... or too good ?

the blade is somewhat short for gunto, and not in gunto mounting

 

so I asked for close up pics and here what I got ...

 

 

part of the blade, habaki, tsuba, seppa and tsuka ... the round iron dots is actually thumbtacks placed to the tsuka to prevent the ito from falling apart, and it is done in 1960s

 

I think the habaki and fuchi are somewhat crude and with number / symbol which looked like 69 on the habaki ?

cannot see any trace of hamon, though

 

details of poorly wrapped tsuka ... seppa and kashira looked suspicious to me

 

 

details of the blade ... now the boundaries between real and fake are starting to blur ... the shape is correct, with signs of shortening the kissaki and yokote (very rarely found on fakes) ... again no trace of hamon seen, and I still cannot see the hada clearly ... is it there or not ??

 

the most intriguing part is the nakago ... it is mumei with single mekugi ana shown below

 

the nakago is in correct shape, without any mei, except strange logo 69 on the tip ...

we can also see that the fuchi is crude and most definitely not original (someone jerry rigged a copper tube to make it)

 

now ... what do you think this sword is ?? is it real or fake ?

[sanjuro]

the owner said that his grandfather bought this from an IJA troop, after Japan surrendered to allied forces in 1945

 

Rather unlikely wouldnt you think since after the Japanese surrendered their swords were all surrendered too. Given that Indonesia was occupied by the Japanese, it would hardly be wise to sell a sword to an enemy. I suppose anything is possible, but this sounds like an outright fabrication to me. In any event the sword does not look genuine. Regardless of the shoddy koshirae, the blade looks too short and the nakago looks contrived. JMHO Closer pics of the blade etc may help to establish what cannot be certain in these pics, but there does not seem to be any yokote or hamon.

[David Flynn]

Sukarno and his forces allied themselves to the Japanese, hoping for independence when the war ended. Some Indonesian soldiers were issued with Japanese made swords. Many others though carried indigenous made "lookalike" swords. This appears to be one of the latter. As an anecdote, a friend used one of the badly made Indonesian ones, as stake for a potplant.

[truelotus]

 

Rather unlikely wouldnt you think since after the Japanese surrendered their swords were all surrendered too. Given that Indonesia was occupied by the Japanese, it would hardly be wise to sell a sword to an enemy. I suppose anything is possible, but this sounds like an outright fabrication to me. In any event the sword does not look genuine. Regardless of the shoddy koshirae, the blade looks too short and the nakago looks contrived. JMHO Closer pics of the blade etc may help to establish what cannot be certain in these pics, but there does not seem to be any yokote or hamon.

 

Hi Keith ...

 

nice to see you here ...

about IJA troops in Indonesia, there are many stories here in Indonesia, and not all IJA troops are savages and many built a smooth relationship with many families in Indonesia, mostly chinese descendants. One of them gave his arisaka rifle and his bayonet along with his sword to one of my relatives when IJA surrendered, in hope that the weapon will be useful to fight their common enemies (allied forces) and as gift of brotherhood. Sadly, only the bayonet is now remain, as the rifle and the sword are given to local military office.

 

so, not all Japanese troops considering Indonesian as enemy ...

 

about the hamon, I agree with you, but about the yokote, you can see in 1st pic, reflection on the kissaki shown a geometrical yokote (but I may be wrong) :D

 

but I agree with you that this sword is somewhat suspicious ... tell me what part do you want to see closer to make a judgement and I'll do my best to provide it :D

[truelotus]

Sukarno and his forces allied themselves to the Japanese, hoping for independence when the war ended. Some Indonesian soldiers were issued with Japanese made swords. Many others though carried indigenous made "lookalike" swords. This appears to be one of the latter. As an anecdote, a friend used one of the badly made Indonesian ones, as stake for a potplant.

 

yes, and indeed the Japanese had already ordered a special sword to be presented to Mr. Sukarno on Indonesia's independence day ...

 

I have never seen this sword, but I knew some details on it ...

 

http://www.to-ken.com/articles/giftspresentations.htm

The special relationship and high mutual regard between the Indonesians and the Japanese military resulted in a spectacular sword being given to Mr. Sukarno, who was to become the first president of that country. The blade of this sword was by the famous Meiji / Taisho period swordsmith Miyamoto Kanenori and the spectacular Kenuki-gata Tachi style mounts were made by Miyata Nobuaki in 1943. In the late Mr. Han Bing Siong's opinion is was probably made for presentation to Sukarno when Indonesia was granted independence by the Japanese military authorities, but as the Japanese surrender pre-empted this, no official ceremony ever took place. This sword, which is now in a Dutch collection, is well described by Mr. Han in JSS / US Newsletter Vol.29 No4. dated July-August 1997.

 

about lookalike swords ... I personally handled several of them, and one is proven a genuine kaigunto blade in indonesian mounting ... the rest is junk and lack many characteristics of real Japanese sword, and easily distinguished from the real deal :D

 

but this one blurred the boundaries between real and fakes ... that's why I am coming to this forum :D

[Brian]

Donny,

Actually..not so blurred if you have done some decent studying. Then you will see that the sugata (shape) is not correct, and the nakago has the wrong shape too. I think this is a fake.

 

Brian

[Grey Doffin]

I agree with Brian. Look at the placement of the mekugi-ana in the nakago; wrong. The line between real and fake may be blurring a bit but there are too many clues to fake here to decide anything else.

Grey

[sanjuro]

Donny

 

A close up of the ha machi mune machi area (without the habaki) and a clear close shot of the nakago itself. The blade has very little to tell us since it is way out of polish (if it ever had one). A close shot of the hada (anywhere on the blade it appears) would be helpful. I dont hold out much hope of this one being real. Like Grey says, it looks like a local copy - late war style.

[chrisf]

Donny,I admire your enthusiasm,you remind me of myself when I set out on the path of trying to learn about Japanese swords and seem to be as keen as mustard.

I read Dobree,B W Robinson and John Yumoto from cover to cover,I tried to add a little to my knowledge every day and handled as many REAL swords as I could.

Are you able to see and handle Japanese swords on a regular basis and do you have reference books?

It's great to be enthusiastic but I fear that you try to read too much into what you are seeing and your enthusiasm overwhelms the logic and evidence of what's in front of you.

I would be amazed if your 'wakizashi' proved to be anything other than a locally made copy.

I remember the first 'signed' katana that I bought,I was SO excited and sat with my books every night for a week to translate it.'Noshu ju Masayuki saku',it was a Showato and I had fondly imagined it to be a koto masterpiece.Moral?Study,look at swords and try to look at the evidence rather than want it to be something it's not.Good luck and don't give up!

[truelotus]

Donny,I admire your enthusiasm,you remind me of myself when I set out on the path of trying to learn about Japanese swords and seem to be as keen as mustard.

I read Dobree,B W Robinson and John Yumoto from cover to cover,I tried to add a little to my knowledge every day and handled as many REAL swords as I could.

Are you able to see and handle Japanese swords on a regular basis and do you have reference books?

It's great to be enthusiastic but I fear that you try to read too much into what you are seeing and your enthusiasm overwhelms the logic and evidence of what's in front of you.

I would be amazed if your 'wakizashi' proved to be anything other than a locally made copy.

I remember the first 'signed' katana that I bought,I was SO excited and sat with my books every night for a week to translate it.'Noshu ju Masayuki saku',it was a Showato and I had fondly imagined it to be a koto masterpiece.Moral?Study,look at swords and try to look at the evidence rather than want it to be something it's not.Good luck and don't give up!

 

Hi Chris ...

 

thank you, for the warm welcome :D

 

actually, I am not a collector, not a true collector I mean, as I started my love towards Japanese sword via kenjutsu practice, how a piece of metal could be so beautiful, so intricate, so alive, yet so deadly

 

I have several books, including copies of very old Japanese sword books in original brought by a friend of mine from his Sensei in Japan, and I do read them all.

 

now, regarding your question whether I had the chance to handle a Japanese swords, I do have the chance, as my friend is a true collector, though it is definitely not as many as yours, that's why I am coming to this forum, to know more :D

 

why I brought this piece into this forum ? because I have handled soooo many fake Japanese swords (and several, which proved to be genuine) in the past, and most of the fakes are poorly made and you can easily spot a fake within seconds

 

I can say that there are very few Indonesians knew enough about Japanese swords in the past, to sufficiently produce a fake with so many details as a real Japanese sword should be.

 

and the sword in pictures above had correct curvature, quite a nice shape, kissaki seems correct (details most copycats forgot to copy), smooth shinogi-ji, and the nakago though seems crude is in correct form.

 

However, I do agree that this one is somewhat suspicious, the tsuba and seppa, the placement of mekugi ana, the crude form of habaki and the nakago ..

 

so ... I already asked the owner to provide clear pic of hamachi and munemachi, close up of the kissaki and the blade to be able to determine what this piece actually is :D

 

please wait for my updates :D

[chrisf]

Hi Donny,is there a school of kenjutsu in particular that you study and what sword do you use?The old sword books sound interesting but I was thinking more in terms of modern reference books like Nagayama Kokan 'Connoisseurs book of Japanese swords' which is superb and packed with information for collectors at all levels.

I think you missed the point a bit in discussing your possible wakizashi,there seems to be agreement that it is not a fake as such,in that it was not made to deliberately deceive like modern fakes encountered on ebay but probably a locally made,wartime copy of a Japanese sword.

Also,the blade has poor sugata,it is not a good shape and neither is the kissaki which is either badly formed or reshaped,the fukura properly should be parallel to the ko-shinogi,if you don't have a book with the terms to describe a blade I'm sure that you will find it on the www.

[truelotus]

Hi Donny,is there a school of kenjutsu in particular that you study and what sword do you use?The old sword books sound interesting but I was thinking more in terms of modern reference books like Nagayama Kokan 'Connoisseurs book of Japanese swords' which is superb and packed with information for collectors at all levels.

I think you missed the point a bit in discussing your possible wakizashi,there seems to be agreement that it is not a fake as such,in that it was not made to deliberately deceive like modern fakes encountered on ebay but probably a locally made,wartime copy of a Japanese sword.

Also,the blade has poor sugata,it is not a good shape and neither is the kissaki which is either badly formed or reshaped,the fukura properly should be parallel to the ko-shinogi,if you don't have a book with the terms to describe a blade I'm sure that you will find it on the www.

 

Hi Chris ...

 

thank you for the information ... I'm gonna look for the book and learn more :D

 

and oh, I forgot that I am a member of Toyama ryu ... dated back from Gunto no soho academy on the wartime :D

I once used a Kanesada blade(and it cost me an arm and a leg, you know), but now I am using mantetsu blade as it is cheaper (Kanesada has been sold long time ago) :D

 

will update you with new pics as soon as i got it. Thank you very much