Jim P Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Hi all, Can someone tell me is there a name in Japanese for this type of blade ? I have seen them before but forgotten where and curious is the purpose of the cutouts to reduce the weight. ( http://www.samurai-nippon.net/589/ ) thanks Quote
sanjuro Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Hi Jim. Trying to be clever and get you an instant answer, I tried hitting the translate button ...... Hmmmmm..... Not much help, but it sure makes for amusing reading. The translated page does however say the cutouts were to reduce weight. It still remains a fairly heavy blade even with the cutouts. Wicked looking blade, but sorry I cant locate the name for the type. Others will no doubt help in this case. Quote
Guido Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Hi all, Can someone tell me is there a name in Japanese for this type of blade ?It's a regular Katana (or Tachi, depending on your point of view) with a type of Horimono that is called Ramma-Sukashi 欄間透かし. What an atrocity! Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Morning all Gassan Sadayoshi's Utsushi of the "Hocho Masamune" also shows complete cut through on the blade. http://www.samuraisword.com/nihontodisp ... /index.htm Why was this originally done? Cheers Malcolm Quote
Jean Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 A modern utsushi, same kind of horimono for same purpose :D http://www.elfikdo.com/shop/revolver-co ... p-770.html Quote
Guido Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Why was this originally done?For decorative purposes. Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Good morning Jean & Guido, Thank you both for the swift responses. In respect of the Sukashi on the original Hocho Masamune. One for Guido, as you are based in China, nothing ritualistic or related to Li 理 & Qi 氣? Cheers Malcolm Quote
Jim P Posted August 21, 2011 Author Report Posted August 21, 2011 Hi all, Keith, I also tried the translate button got foot odor,including back left tooth disorder. :D Guido, its not what I would think off when thinking Horimono was Ramma-Sukashi popular at some point ? as I don't think the smith would do this ? I must say its not my idea decorative do you think it would weaken the blade ? Jean I did not make that connection but you are right same thing Quote
Guido Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 One for Guido, as you are based in China, nothing ritualistic or related to Li 理 & Qi 氣?There are those rare instances when I don't have the slightest idea what people are talking about - this is one of them. I must say its not my idea decorative do you think it would weaken the blade ?*Any* removal of material will weaken a blade. Even Bo-hi weaken a blade, but it's the best way to make a blade lighter without sacrificing too much of its integrity. I can't think of any other reason than decoration when it comes to Ramma-Sukashi. Except insanity, maybe, when looking at the picture that started this thread .... Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Hi Guido, There are those rare instances when I don't have the slightest idea what people are talking about - this is one of them. Li & Qi are terms roughly approximating form and spirit popularised by the Neo Confucian Scholar Zhu Xi 朱熹 The way they were explained to me was: If you take all the Qi out of an area, the Li still remains. In this way, the Li can be seen as a "container" that holds Qi and gives it a shape, in much the same way that a cup holds Tea and gives it shape. And much like a cup, no matter how many times you discard the Tea (Qi) from the cup (Li), the cup itself will remain the same. Another example would be a game of chess, no matter how many games you play on a chessboard, you can always play more games on the board, and the rules remain the same, no matter how the pieces are moved. Basically put, Li is a set of rules that remain no matter what happens to the physical form around it, and that shape all physical forms. I have encountered references to Li & Qi during ongoing research into documents relating to the background motivations of Masahide and his followers in the 19th Century. Please allow me to rephrase the question: Were Sukashi cut not purely as decoration or to cover up faults but for various arcane or shamanistic protective purposes, much in the same way has been suggested of Horimono and Bonji by Carmen Blacker in her book The Catalpa Bow? If so, what were they? Cheers Malcolm Quote
Guido Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Malcolm, I have to admit that I'm not familiar with this concept, so I'm afraid I can't be of any help. Quote
Baka Gaijin Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Thank you Guido Cheers Malcolm Quote
Guido Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 P.S.: If you so much as touch my tea cup, I'll break your frickin arm! Quote
sanjuro Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 Digressing a little but there is an old story about these little cutouts. I have taken it directly from 'Sword and Same' by Joly and Hogitaro, more correctly from Joly's sub script. "Makara Jurozeamon was a very strong man. He had a sword more than one foot in width." So someone asked ' How could he then see the foe when he struck at him?' And the storyteller's reply goes, "He had a few little windows cut in the blade, and he kept peeping out and cutting... peeping out and cutting". :D Aside from this which is ludicrous of course, there are no shamanistic or other arcane practices that might explain or require a blade to be so disfigured ................. Could it be the result of a tosho on steroids or some other recreational chemical concoction perhaps? A tosho on the turps might think up such an abomination. Quote
cabowen Posted August 21, 2011 Report Posted August 21, 2011 To give a little more background on these sukashi-bori seen on blades, as noted, they are referred to as ramma-sukashi. Ramma are the panels, often pierced, above the sliding doors in a Japanese traditional home. Similar to a transom, they allow for air movement between rooms. Some are simply a lattice, others can be very elaborate carvings.... Here are some photos: Hope that adds to the discussion..... Quote
loui Posted August 23, 2011 Report Posted August 23, 2011 Just when you think you have seen just about everything a sword like that comes up - very interesting and thanks for sharing. Quote
Jim P Posted August 23, 2011 Author Report Posted August 23, 2011 HI Chris,Your pics, somehow look more elaborate than on the sword but I understand the connection do you think that's where the inspiration comes from ? Hi Louis, I also found it interesting and that its a type of Horimono is a interesting definition of engraving or carving of images, it is a long way from this Ramma-Sukashi interpretation maybe I am missing something :D :D thanks guys Quote
cabowen Posted August 23, 2011 Report Posted August 23, 2011 I doubt the architectural detail was the motivation but it does describe this type of horimono well.... Quote
Toryu2020 Posted August 24, 2011 Report Posted August 24, 2011 Sasa no tsuyu BTW implies that this sword cuts thru targets as easily as dew falls from the young bamboo leaf (sasa) I have seen other swords with this name, never with this hori... -t Quote
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