Translation of sayagaki help

[edzo]

Greetings Members,

 

Am working on a sayagaki, having some difficulty. Any help will be appreciated, Thanks Ed F

 

1. Nochi-no

2.Fuji

 

3.Iye? ie??

 

4.Mitsu

 

5. yuku??

 

6. Den

 

7.Rai

 

 

 

The Tsuka,

1. Mi

2. ?

3. ?

4. San? Yama?

 

5. Nochi-no?

6. Fuji?

7. Ta

8. Ro

[cabowen]

Saya:

 

goto ke senzo denrai

 

From the ancestors of the Goto clan

 

Tsuka:

 

bibai sumiyama Goto Taro

 

Goto Taro (present owner)

 

Bibai Sumiyama (maybe location of the owner)

[edzo]

Dear Mr Bowen,

 

I thank you once again for your assistance. Not seeing a Kao on the saya I thought it may indicate a makers name. It sounds to me that it must have been a valued heirloom of a Goto family. The tag that came with it says it was found in a cave next to a body in Japan around 1940s. The Wak in it is mumei and appears to be traditionally made. Thank You again and have a good week!

 

Ed F.

[cabowen]

You are welcome...

 

Yes, it was a family heirloom.....please treasure it....

[Brian]

Nothing to do with the Goto school of tosogu I assume...just sharing the same name...

 

Brian

[edzo]

Hi Brian, Thank you again,

 

I drew that conclusion as well and that is why I wrote "a Goto family" in my response.

Regards, ED F

[k morita]

Hi,

 

"Bibai sumiyama" is pronounced as "Bibai-tanzan". Yes, location of the owner.

In this case, 炭("tan") means coal,not charcoal("sumi"). :D

 

The main industry in Bibai area in Hokkaido prefecture(Northern Japan) was mining of coals before.

[cabowen]

I wondered if it would be tanzan or sumiyama....50-50 chance!

 

Thanks for the correction....

[edzo]

Dear Mr. Morita and Bowen,

 

Thanks for the follow-up. I wondered because I could not find a Sumiyama, just the Coal town Bibai. It was the primary industry many years ago but declined, as a primary industry in modern times as did its population. That gives relavance to having been found in a cave, maybe an abandoned mine. Thanks again.

Respectfully, Ed F.

[edzo]

Dear Mr. Bowen and Morita,

 

If you should revisit this thread I was wondering if you could lend your thoughts. I am researching a tanto (unrelated to this thread), and stumbled upon Nara Tenzan Shrine. I wondered if it could be one in the same or may have a connection with the sayagaki. This came as a result of 1.), could not find a jurisdiction near Bibai and 2.), researching a signed blade I have, "Nara Sanjo Munechika" (on the blade), if I'm correct on my translation.

I read that Tanzan is a Shrine and is the largest repository of early unaltered blades including early Hianjo/Yamato/Hosho etc., utilized to some extent in the kantei process of attribution. I know that usually these signatures are a tribute to someone however, in this research effort there is an exception to that as posted in the links I have included for your information if you are not already aware of that.

1. Under Ko-Hosho paragraph 6. http://www.nihonto.ca/ko-hosho/

2. Last two paragraphs. http://www.samuraiswords.com/samurai-sw ... d-s/72.htm

I guess I'm considering the possibility, though unlikely, there may be a connection with the blade in the sayagaki. Any input woud be appreciated if you are so inclined, Respectfully, Ed F.

 

Please forgive this edit, Is it possible that Goto could be Goro?, not that I am challenging your assistance I found a Goro reference and it made me curious.

[Toryu2020]

Ed -

Two different kanji actually;

Tan, Sumi (炭) coal/charcoal as Morita san has pointed out

Dan, danjiru (談) conversation/talk with/discuss

 

Bibai Tanzan - a place name in Hokkaido

Nara Tanzan Jinja - a shrine in Nara

 

two very different locations as well.

 

Also Go (後) To (藤) a very common family name as compared to Go (五) Ro (郎) a common first name - its easy for westerners to make the mistake but seeing it in writing there is no room for error - an interesting piece even without the connection to the tanto...

-t

[edzo]

Dear Mr. Helm,

 

Thank you for the clarification and your generosity. I became confused and geographically disoriented while researching the tanto. Have a lucky Day, Ed F.