jackoandyj Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Hi chaps, I am very new on here! have only just registered today! Today I became the owner of a sword. A sword that used to belong to my grandfather who brought it back from burma in 1940 something. My uncle recently die and my aunty did not want a lethal weapon in the house and as my father did not want it so asked me! This is why I apologise, you must get so, so many people saying I have my grandad's sword who was in WW2 and would like to know some more about it! I am not the first nor will be the last!:? I am fascinated by the Japanese tradition of sword making and although this one was probably punched out by a machine, would like to know more about it. I do remember the sword with fond memory and we used to clean it together on the odd occasion when he polished the other brass objects in the household at the time. I can hear you saying, you should never use BRASSO on a sword! I must admit to starting to clean it when I read some of the articles on here, which is why in the photo's some bits are shiny! oops hopefully no damage done?/??? Anyway, this is probably a very common story but here goes. The story is that in Burma an ambush happened and my Grandfathers friend was killed and in the fight he then killed the man who killed his friend. I would love to believe this but as I am an open minded individual, believe that he probably picked it up from one of the many dead or wounded at that time???? Although I do remember a transcript that my Grandfather wrote describing the event. Unfortunately this resides with my father of who I wish no contact with! I would like if possible to draw upon your knowledge on this subject and say yes it is a fake or no it is not, and shed some light on the origins of this amazingly decorated life taker! some links to my photobucket account here it is a breakdown view. the securing pin in the handle was missing. I remember it being their as a child but in the ownership of my uncle seems to have disappeared? one side of the sword showing inscriptions. I am worried about the 135 that you can see on the end?? why is that their?? would it not be in Kanji? probably a fake as it does not have a blood groove on the blade either?? most other photos i have seen have a groove?? but alas I am no expert which is why I am here! The other side of the sword handle? Symbol on the handle guard? the other brass pieces also had inscription on them?? Now that i have it in my procession, I find them facinating and would love to know what i should do with it? hand it in to the police to snap the blade and dispose of it (which I do not want to do) Or keep hold of it and cherish it although it will have to stay somewhere that my son will not be able to prat about with it! I look forward to you ideas and suggestions. i have seen so, so much about fakes that this could be one and once again I apologise if it is> Thankyou Quote
pcfarrar Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Now that i have it in my procession, I find them facinating and would love to know what i should do with it? hand it in to the police to snap the blade and dispose of it (which I do not want to do) Or keep hold of it and cherish it although it will have to stay somewhere that my son will not be able to prat about with it! You might consider selling it, should easily make upwards of £700 in the current UK market. Quote
jackoandyj Posted July 28, 2011 Author Report Posted July 28, 2011 So it looks like the real deal to you then?? I would not consider parting with it even if fake as I have many a good memory cleaning it with my grandfather. It was a humbling experience today when I allowed my son to hold it. I was probably not much older that he is now, and the look on his face as he was standing their holding a real sword was priceless! I feel it would be a real waste to just sell it and want to pass it on to my son. do you have any thoughts on how i should clean it up or just leave it?? the scabbard catch does not work and also as you can see the handle securing pin is missing is it worth getting it polished professionally?? I have spoken to one of my work colleagues though about translating the inscriptions. he is married to a Japanese woman, so she will be able to decipher Quote
kaigunair Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 well, here's how I can help: it is dated showa 16, ju-ichi nen, or November 1941. If someone doesn't translate first, maybe I'll tackle the flip side which is the smith when I get home later on. 133 is an assembly number, and nothing wrong with it for blades of this period. mark on tsuba is ok too, and I believe the make made better quality fittings than ones that just have plain numbers on them. Close up pics of the blade itself would be a nice study. Quote
cabowen Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Damn, I see several people have already posted while I was working on this and keeping my 2 year old from rearranging the furniture...Oh well, here it is anyway.... Your sword is a genuine WWII Japanese officer's sword. The sword is inscribed: Noshu Sukenobu Saku (made by Sukenobu of Noshu) Noshu is an old name for present day Gifu Prefecture and has a long history as a sword making center. The sword is dated November of Showa 16 (1941). The fittings were made by the Suwa company. They were a well known manufacturer of sword furniture during the war. It is hard to say from the photos if this sword was traditionally made or simply one of the millions mass produced in the Gifu area for the war. In any case it is clearly of sentimental value and should be cared for as outlined in the FAQ..... Hope this is of some help. Quote
jackoandyj Posted July 28, 2011 Author Report Posted July 28, 2011 some more pics of the blade..................................... end looks to have some damage, also blade does not feel that sharp to the touch? another blade pic another of the guard can i buy a retaining screw anywhere? does it have to be original? or will a copy do? Quote
Grey Doffin Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 Hi, name please, Here is a care and etiquette brochure that will tell you how to handle the sword. http://www.nbthk-ab.org/Etiquette.htm You need to replace the missing pin, ASAP. Without a pin the blade can easily be damaged. With nothing to lock it in the handle it can shatter its point in the scabbard bottom. Grab a chopstick and whittle. Probably not worth the cost of restoration and in good enough condition as is any way. Enjoy. Grey Quote
jackoandyj Posted July 28, 2011 Author Report Posted July 28, 2011 Thanks for all of your help on here tonight, at least i know it is not a fake and although it may not be in pristine condition, the sword has a story to tell! I shall study how to care for my sword and maybe get some repairs done to it also? Quote
kusunokimasahige Posted July 28, 2011 Report Posted July 28, 2011 I have just this to say : Never put your sword on the grass or the pavement like that, it will seriously damage the blade ! Rust as well as scratches !! KM Quote
truelotus Posted July 29, 2011 Report Posted July 29, 2011 I have just this to say : Never put your sword on the grass or the pavement like that, it will seriously damage the blade ! Rust as well as scratches !! KM just barely wanted to make a suggestion, but you come up first ... maybe I'll add up something ... 1. buy some alcohol ... 96% is the best 2. pour a little bit of it on white, clean cloth, and start wiping the blade surface for all dirt, dust, oil / brasso residue 3. dry it with another piece of clean white cloth 4. go to hardware store and buy mineral oil ... or best if you contact nearest local sword club / kenjutsu club to obtain choji oil ... 5. put few drops on a 10X10 white clean cloth and start to wipe the sword until all sides of the blade (minus the tang) is covered with thin layer of oil only a thin film of oil needed, no need to make the sword "wet" with oil this will preserve the sword for many years to come ... enjoy :D Quote
SwordGuyJoe Posted July 29, 2011 Report Posted July 29, 2011 jackoandyj, The pics of the blade lead me to believe this is not traditionally made (showato), as you can't see any real activity in the hamon (temperline), but it is interesting to note that - unless the perspective of the photos are to blame - it looks like it is o-kissaki. Not typical for gunto blades. Also the koshirae isn't the 'dime a dozen' and would have been more expensive at the time. Overall a decent example of what the officers were carrying around at the time. Quote
jackoandyj Posted July 29, 2011 Author Report Posted July 29, 2011 a couple more of the blade and end that i took yesterday another view of a section of the blade notch in the blade hope these other pics help?? Quote
Mark Posted July 29, 2011 Report Posted July 29, 2011 looks oil tempered to me, Showato not gendito Quote
jackoandyj Posted July 29, 2011 Author Report Posted July 29, 2011 :? what ever that means? :? when you hold the blade at the right angle you can see a triangle (that being the tip) and then a ripple effect along the blade? Quote
jackoandyj Posted July 31, 2011 Author Report Posted July 31, 2011 What is the best way of getting rid of finger marks?? Their look to be some balck finger marks on the blade where someone has held the blade and the oil / acid has etched the blade. How can I restore the blade so that it is really clean, or would this require specialist measures. If that is the case, it is probably not worthy of such treatment as it is not the best example around of an officers shin gunto! also what is o-kissaki, i have looked on this site, and admit to all of the word meaning little to me? is it a bad thing that the blade is like this? and also is it bad if it is oil tempered rather than water? sorry to be a nuisance I have no idea about all of this stuff and find it very interesting. I am now thinking about getting the sword mounted in a display case so that it does not get picked up and damaged, as it seems a shame to be hidden away! what are your thoughts? Quote
paulb Posted July 31, 2011 Report Posted July 31, 2011 To remove the finger prints is likely to require the attention of a qualified polisher and I think it has said before this blade probably does not justify the expense. The best thing to do at this stage is to stabalise it with a thin coat of choji oil. Not sure if it has been suggested but depending where you live it might be worth visiting a local sword soceity (if you are in the UK the Northern Token meets in manchester and the Token Soceity of GB in London) I am sure they would be happy to advise you. With regard to your other questions: O-kissaki means large point. It looks longer than is normal for this type of sword. This may just be because of the angle of the photograph. Traditionally blades are differentially hardened by quenching them in water. This puts great strain on the blade. In WWII blades were often quenched in oil. this is more forgiving and reduces the risk of damage in process. Oil quenched blades are not considered true Nihonto as the correct quenching process contributes some of the characterisitcs of the finished work. hope this helps answer some of your questions but please do contact a local soceity as it is by far the best way to obtain advice as they can see the sword in hand. regards Paul Quote
jackoandyj Posted July 31, 2011 Author Report Posted July 31, 2011 thanks, sums it all up nicely, thanks again! Quote
truelotus Posted August 1, 2011 Report Posted August 1, 2011 helping you know a bit about kissaki ... :D Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.