Jean Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 viewtopic.php?f=1&t=10578 What do you think of picture Norimitsu14jpeg? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lee Bray Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Either a drunken polisher or camera angle problems. Check the first picture of the side by side nakago. The lines look straight in that shot, though the shinogi is somewhat crooked. Perhaps this points at some 'bending' of the nakago but I don't think so based on the resultant nakago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 This is just an impression. The shinogi of the blade does not carry smoothly to the shinogi of the nakago. The nakago seems to be at a strange angle to the rest of the sugata ie, it angles rather awkwardly toward the mune edge at the point between the machi and where the patination on the nakago begins. This may be why the polishers marks do not line up parallel with the mune edge of the habaki moto. It could also be the photography angles. Could it also be that the polishers marks were added later???? The speckling above the line where the patination begins reminds me somewhat of an electrically welded nakago, but I cant be sure of that, so I mention it only as a possible suspicion. Bear in mind I can be horribly wrong. (it wouldnt be the first time, nor will it be the last). Please dont shoot the messenger....... We were asked for comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lorenzo Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Welding a nakago there should delete few centimetres of temper. Judging by the pictures, the geometries are very off; seems that there was something wrong there and the polisher tried to hide it in some way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 I would have thought the polishers mark were added later...... With the blade in hand it does not show any signs of having being welded... but I probably don't know what I'm looking for. This is just an impression. The shinogi of the blade does not carry smoothly to the shinogi of the nakago. The nakago seems to be at a strange angle to the rest of the sugata ie, it angles rather awkwardly toward the mune edge at the point between the machi and where the patination on the nakago begins. This may be why the polishers marks do not line up parallel with the mune edge of the habaki moto. It could also be the photography angles. Could it also be that the polishers marks were added later???? The speckling above the line where the patination begins reminds me somewhat of an electrically welded nakago, but I cant be sure of that, so I mention it only as a possible suspicion. Bear in mind I can be horribly wrong. (it wouldnt be the first time, nor will it be the last). Please dont shoot the messenger....... We were asked for comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 I've just checked and the shinogi of the blade does carry on straight / smoothly to the shinogi of the nakago, the photo does slightly distort it's appearance. The polishers marks follow the line of the mune machi when looked at by the naked eye, theres a deviance of about 1mm when magnified however much the photo is magnified by. This is just an impression. The shinogi of the blade does not carry smoothly to the shinogi of the nakago. The nakago seems to be at a strange angle to the rest of the sugata ie, it angles rather awkwardly toward the mune edge at the point between the machi and where the patination on the nakago begins. This may be why the polishers marks do not line up parallel with the mune edge of the habaki moto. It could also be the photography angles. Could it also be that the polishers marks were added later???? The speckling above the line where the patination begins reminds me somewhat of an electrically welded nakago, but I cant be sure of that, so I mention it only as a possible suspicion. Bear in mind I can be horribly wrong. (it wouldnt be the first time, nor will it be the last). Please dont shoot the messenger....... We were asked for comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Since the shinogi and mune of the nakago should be parallel to each other in the area of the nakago just below the machi, the polisher's lines should be at the same angle (ideally parallel) to each. They appear to be nearly parallel to the mune but not so to the shinogi. This tells me that one or the other has been moved and it looks to be the shinogi to me. Jason, please try this. Wrap a towel around the top end of the blade and holding it by the towel sight down the shinogi to see if it wanders below the machi. It should be a continuous gentle curve; I'm guessing that you will see a very slight jog in the curve. Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 My PM to Jason before I issued this post, (of course the picture may mistaken us): look at the lines of the polisher mei, at the shinogi and the angle beween both. The angle is decreasing between the shinogi and the mune... It looks like as if the back has been filed as to create a new mune machi... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Excuse my crude drawing.... The side of the blade not shown in the photo seems fine, however on this side (shown) The shinogi runs parallell to the mune at arrows 1 & 3, where I've got arrow 2 at the machi the shinogi seems to run straight briefly (instead of following the gentle curve) before returning to the gentle curve and parrallel to the mune at arrow 1&3..... Would this be the wandering you refer to??? When looking at the blade as you suggested this is the only thing looking "odd" Since the shinogi and mune of the nakago should be parallel to each other in the area of the nakago just below the machi, the polisher's lines should be at the same angle (ideally parallel) to each. They appear to be nearly parallel to the mune but not so to the shinogi. This tells me that one or the other has been moved and it looks to be the shinogi to me.Jason, please try this. Wrap a towel around the top end of the blade and holding it by the towel sight down the shinogi to see if it wanders below the machi. It should be a continuous gentle curve; I'm guessing that you will see a very slight jog in the curve. Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jean Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 From the picture, it seems there is an angle between the handle and the blade on the mune side Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 heres a photo of the mune machi looking down on it.... Not sure if this helps get to the bottom of it or not... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Yes Jason and yes Jean, The shinogi wanders and the mune of the nakago has been altered. Seems strange that the mune would have to be moved; usually it's the other side moving to create a more robust ha-machi. With all the questions being raised, this might be a good sword to move away from (sell) Jason. Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Is that a diagonal crack or line across the top of the nakago mune as shown in the last photo? If so, you may have a tsuji-nakago (welded on nakago)..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 No it's not a crack, it's a tad uneven almost like a flake of steel corroded away (I doubt that's the cause but can't think how else to describe it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 This is what a tsuji nakago looks like: I would check very carefully for this... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 14, 2011 Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 I have checked carefully, I do not think it is a welded nakago. The photo does not show all the right angles. It looks more like a chip out of the mune which may have been filed down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Jason. Please excuse me talking around you, but there are now two of us suggesting the possibility of a tsuji nakago. I would rather be wrong about this, since it is not something I like to see on any sword. Chris. In the photograph of the nakago mune below the habaki moto, Do you see the three lines of abuttment (The two transverse ones are quite feint) The upper one shallow and the lower one deep, almost identical to your illustration? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Chris. In the photograph of the nakago mune below the habaki moto, Do you see the three lines of abuttment (The two transverse ones are quite feint) The upper one shallow and the lower one deep, almost identical to your illustration? Yes, that is why I suggested it may be a tsuji nakago and the reason I posted the sketch.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 If you could see it in hand I think you might think differently...... I respect your input and opinions, and will seek advice /opinion from James Jordan... I too hope it is not the case!!! If it were the case would there be any signs on the sides of the blade? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sanjuro Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Jason. Sometimes there is the speckling I referred to in my first post. This is not definitive on its own however, since sometimes that will appear as part of the patination of the nakago and it takes an experienced eye to differentiate between them. There is a section in The Japanese Sword by Kanzan Sato that deals with this and how it was done (with diagrams). If you have the book it would be worth a look. I sincerely hope that it is not tsugi nakago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Thanks Keith, I'll get the book out later tonight and check the relevant section.... Jas Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Hi, Look at this below gentlemen. IMHO a tsuji-nakago will not change the location and the way of the shinogi a really poor polish can do that . A clear picture of the wole shinogi on each side would be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Best me and my camera can manage. Is that the shot you wanted Jaques? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jacques D. Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Hi, Jason, Yes but a clickable thumbnail would be better and without light on the machi area; you can also mesure the width of the shinogi-ji. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 I managed to get rid of the light.... not sure if it's a worse picture tho.... I'm not very good with cameras and photo editing software. I'm not sure how to do a clickable thumbnail..... The width of the shinogi-ji is...... On both sides just on the tsuka side of the yokote the width is 7mm, in the middle of the blade the width is 7.5mm-8mm (both sides), on the blade side of the machi the width is 8-8.5mm, on the mei side of the polishers marks width is 8.5-9mm. So there is some deviation, but I just checked one of my other blades and it seems to follow a similiar pattern. Also I just got word from the polisher (not the one who polished it) and he says it is definately not a welded nakago, the suggestion is way off.... He also said "the polisher has not wanted to move the shinogi down to follow the contour of the nakago and this is just poor workmanship rather than a welded nakago" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 he says it is definately not a welded nakago, the suggestion is way off.... That is good news! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gtstcactus Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 It sure is great news!!!!!!! Chris, I totally see where you (and others who mentioned the possible welded nakago) were coming from based on the photos. They really did look suspicious.... Now that we have established it's not fatally flawed in that department.... Could anyone say if this was once a decent sword screwed up by the last polisher??? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 I am not so sure it is the polisher's fault- the shaping of the blade comes from the smith. The polisher can correct minor deviations but it would seem that this is simply poor workmanship steming from a slopping job by the smith. What it tells me is that this was probably a kazu uchi mono, or mass produced blade. As such, it probably was never more than a utilitarian blade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Doffin Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Really Chris? Would a smith have handed off a blade to it's first polisher with a jog in the shinogi? And if that were the case, wouldn't one of the subsequent polishers have made a correction? I think a slip-shod last polish is a much more logical answer. Grey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cabowen Posted June 16, 2011 Report Share Posted June 16, 2011 Yes, if it was just a mass produced blade, it could have been...We see WWII mass produced blades like this all the time. It may have never been corrected.....because it was never perceived to be much in the first place. There would be no reason for a polisher to cause this, but it would be a polisher who could correct it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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